myArmoury.com - Shield form and design

Posts: 1,084 Location: Finland

Mon 25 May, 2009 3:56 am

Nat Lamb wrote:

Also, that particular symbol is the intelectual property of Michael Moorcock, if you are gonna produce anything with it on, you should gain his permission first.

No, it's not.

Those particular shields, for example, are part of the Chaos Warrior miniatures produced by Games Workshop for their Warhammer Fantasy Battle tabletop game. No official relation to Moorcock (aside from the obvious).

Also, that's the reason for the cutouts: just because. They're Chaos, they don't need a rationale. :p

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Robin Palmer

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Posts: 138 Location: herne bay Kent UK

Mon 25 May, 2009 4:12 am

Hi all.

On the matter of pole arms and shields may I direct attention to macadonian pike who had small shields strapped to left arm leaving hands free to wield pike.

Muslin horse archers appear to have used the same type leaving hands free to use bow and lance. The size of the shields seems to have been a matter of personal taste but had practical limits for free movement.

Yours Bob palmer

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Dan Howard

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Posts: 3,636 Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia

Mon 25 May, 2009 6:25 am

Robin Palmer wrote:

Hi all.

On the matter of pole arms and shields may I direct attention to macadonian pike who had small shields strapped to left arm leaving hands free to wield pike.

Charles the Bold's men used exactly the same equipment. Connolly reckons that the Macedonian shield was not strapped to the arm at all. It was wielded solely by means of the neck strap.

The first to do it were the Mycenaeans. The Lion Hunt dagger shows how a large shield was wielded with the neck strap while both hands handled the long spear.

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Robin Palmer

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Posts: 138 Location: herne bay Kent UK

Mon 25 May, 2009 11:40 am

Hi dan.

I have read the same source but I feel that on larger shields in your illustrations weight would hold the shields in place but the smaller Macedonian ones they would tend to flap around. I feel some form of light strap would be needed to keep the shield in place especially in combat without some form of strap they would be to easy to simply knock aside.

Your Bob palmer

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Dan Howard

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Posts: 3,636 Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia

Mon 25 May, 2009 5:06 pm

Robin Palmer wrote:

I have read the same source but I feel that on larger shields in your illustrations weight would hold the shields in place but the smaller Macedonian ones they would tend to flap around.

Connolly made a reconstruction and tried it out. He reckons that it was controllable just with the neck strap.

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Nat Lamb

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Posts: 385 Location: Melbourne, Australia

Tue 26 May, 2009 12:37 am

Mikko Kuusirati wrote:

Nat Lamb wrote:

Also, that particular symbol is the intelectual property of Michael Moorcock, if you are gonna produce anything with it on, you should gain his permission first.

No, it's not.

Those particular shields, for example, are part of the Chaos Warrior miniatures produced by Games Workshop for their Warhammer Fantasy Battle tabletop game. No official relation to Moorcock (aside from the obvious).

Who have been shamelessly using this symbol for years without acknowledging its origionator.

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Elling Polden

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Posts: 1,576 Location: Bergen, Norway

Tue 26 May, 2009 1:20 am

How stable a shield is when hanging on the neck strap depends on where you place the straps.

If you place the front stap towards the middle of the shield, so that it rests against the upper arm, the shield will follow the body without flapping to much, even without additional armstraps.
I have tried this with large heaters, kites and round shields, and it works satisfactory.

It seems some kites or heaters had long straps along the leading edge, giving additional controll when worn on the shoulder, while allowing the arm to move up and down.
Later cavalry heaters have dedicated straps for the upper arm, like the ones on my small heater.

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13th century german heaters

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Late cavalry heaters

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Mikko Kuusirati

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Posts: 1,084 Location: Finland

Tue 26 May, 2009 6:58 am

Nat Lamb wrote:

Mikko Kuusirati wrote:

Nat Lamb wrote:

Also, that particular symbol is the intelectual property of Michael Moorcock, if you are gonna produce anything with it on, you should gain his permission first.

No, it's not.

Those particular shields, for example, are part of the Chaos Warrior miniatures produced by Games Workshop for their Warhammer Fantasy Battle tabletop game. No official relation to Moorcock (aside from the obvious).

Who have been shamelessly using this symbol for years without acknowledging its origionator.

The eightfold arrow is older than Moorcock; it's essentially just a variation on a compass rose, a doubled cross or a segmented octagon. He's the one who associated it with chaos, specifically, and could trademark a specific rendering of it, but the basic design itself is neither invented nor trademarked by him.

There's actually an article on this on Wikipedia. :)

PS. Warhammer (and especially WH 40,000) rips off pretty much everybody who's sufficiently METAL and/or GRIMDARK. Most of the "victims" take it as a compliment. :D

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Nat Lamb

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Posts: 385 Location: Melbourne, Australia

Tue 26 May, 2009 7:20 am

Mikko Kuusirati wrote:

Nat Lamb wrote:

Mikko Kuusirati wrote:

Nat Lamb wrote:

Also, that particular symbol is the intelectual property of Michael Moorcock, if you are gonna produce anything with it on, you should gain his permission first.

No, it's not.

Those particular shields, for example, are part of the Chaos Warrior miniatures produced by Games Workshop for their Warhammer Fantasy Battle tabletop game. No official relation to Moorcock (aside from the obvious).

Who have been shamelessly using this symbol for years without acknowledging its origionator.

The eightfold arrow is older than Moorcock; it's essentially just a variation on a compass rose, a doubled cross or a segmented octagon. He's the one who associated it with chaos, specifically, and could trademark a specific rendering of it, but the basic design itself is neither invented nor trademarked by him.

There's actually an article on this on Wikipedia. :)

PS. Warhammer (and especially WH 40,000) rips off pretty much everybody who's sufficiently METAL and/or GRIMDARK. Most of the "victims" take it as a compliment. :D

There is a rather neat version Mike used at one point which was also incorporated a british flag. And yeah, WH rips everyone off, and some take it as a compliment, Mike has been treated rather shabily by rather a lot of people over the years who have used his ideas to enrich themselves, and not given much back. Chaosium was a greater offender, but not the only one. Even in the Wikipedia entry, it states that the older symbols arms "were not arrows".

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Lafayette C Curtis

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Posts: 2,698 Location: Indonesia

Sat 30 May, 2009 8:22 am

Nat Lamb wrote:

On the cutout, would it be feasable (not talking "is there any historical evidence" just is there a physical impedimment to) for a phalanx of polearm/spearmen to "lock" the spears into a cutout, and brace them a bit for a "pointy shield ruch" en masse?

Reasonable, perhaps, but probably unnecessary. Classical Greek hoplites were probably the best shield-rushers in history bar none, and they seem to have counted more on their shields than on their spars to do the job in this regard--though it may have had something to do with their unusually large and heavy bronze-faced shields, whose mass made them the ideal primary weapon for a coordinated shield-rush.

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