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Endre Fodstad




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PostPosted: Thu 26 Nov, 2015 2:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From the Ordonnances des Métiers de Paris of 1296 and 1311 we get some further information on the contruction of "gamboison".

The 1296 reference says that you should halve "telé" (canvas) closest to the body, and outside that "coton et de plois des toiles" (folded cotton in many layers) as well as "d'escroes", which means "strips/remnants of cloth". On the outside the armour should be "Sendal", the lowest quality silk. It stresses the thickness of the cotton layers.

In the 1311 version, textile armour are called "cote gamboisée" - "garments sewn through".

The Chronicon colmariense of 1296 (also french) has the following passage: ”armati reputabantur qui galeas ferreas in capitibus habebant, et qui wambasia, id est, tunicam spissam ex lino stuppa, vel veteribus pannis consutam, et desuper camisiam ferream, id est vestem ex circulis ferreis contextam”. I.e. a "wambasia" is a thick tunic of linen or "stuppa", sewn together, or sewn together of smaller pieces.

So the french certainly layered their textile armour.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Thu 26 Nov, 2015 1:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Leather armour         Reply with quote

David Huggins wrote:
My point is using a similar construct and knowing of the use of metal lamellar plate in Merovingain Frankia and also known from Langobardic finds in what is now Italy,

Missed this the first time. There is no evidence for Frankish or Langobard lamellar. The only lamellar found in the region dates to the period when the Avars were in control and the style of this lamellar is Asian. Lamellar disappears when the Avars are driven out. There is nothing to suggest that the Franks had any use for this kind of armour.

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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Thu 26 Nov, 2015 1:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
if this is the same 1322 ordinance I have in front of me I have a slight correction. The word used is stuffed. This does not mean layered as in whole linen cloth but seems to mean smaller fragments that are placed into a shell. I see nothing to indicate layering. It is likely smaller remnants and pieces going into the white aketons/gambesons they are mentioning. That said all the remaining examples of padded armour are sandwiched in.


The word "stuffed" didn't have the same meaning as it does today. It could definitely refer to something that was made from multiple layers of cloth sewn inside a shell of cloth or leather.

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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Wed 30 Dec, 2015 8:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan, this might be evidence for Langobard lamellar: http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...mp;t=69048
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Wed 30 Dec, 2015 9:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Don't know if this has been shown here before. I just found it on tforum. Middle Eastern leather armour: http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=936 Bottom three links.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Wed 30 Dec, 2015 11:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Len Parker wrote:
Dan, this might be evidence for Langobard lamellar: http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...mp;t=69048

I don't see how; it dates to the 6th century. The Avars were in control during that period. It looks like an Avar heavy lancer to me.

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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Wed 30 Dec, 2015 11:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Len Parker wrote:
Don't know if this has been shown here before. I just found it on tforum. Middle Eastern leather armour: http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=936 Bottom three links.

I thought this thread was about leather armour in Scandinavia and Western Europe. There are lots of examples of leather armour in Asia, the Middle East, and Eastern Europe. It might be better to start a new thread if you want to discuss leather armour in those regions.

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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Thu 31 Dec, 2015 5:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was referring to the Decorative plate from the helmet of 6th century Lombard King Agilulf.
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Thu 31 Dec, 2015 6:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan,

I have never seen any period connotations fro stuffed being layered. Do you know of any?

RPM
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Thu 31 Dec, 2015 1:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
I have never seen any period connotations fro stuffed being layered. Do you know of any?

No. But the word "stuffed" simply meant that it was placed inside. Some jacks were said to be "stuffed with mail", which is nothing more than a simple kazaghand or jazerant construction. It is not reasonable to say that the word implies that the construction involved small pieces of a filler material as it does today.

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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Wed 19 Jun, 2019 8:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathan Dean mentioned this on AA. It's John of Salisbury's description of light-armed english fighting the welsh:

"He decided, in other words, to campaign with a light armament shod with boots, their chests protected with straps of a very tough hide, carrying small round shields to ward off missiles, and using as their offensive weapons javelins and a pointed sword."

https://books.google.com/books?id=TGA_uAFuPXoC&pg=PA104&lpg=PA104&dq=john+of+salisbury+a+light+armament+shod+with+boots&source=bl&ots=-hCpUJHAJb&sig=ACfU3U1zJe-MTMeTG7bSQifiJnEdctJt4g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiw29qojffiAhWh2FkKHaV3DnwQ6AEwAXoECAcQAQ

That does sound like leather armour.

Leonard Parker
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jun, 2019 2:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is a definite contender but a lot of old translations are pretty dodgy. We need to see the passage in the original language.
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Jonathan Dean




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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jun, 2019 3:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cum ergo gentis cognosceret leuitatem, quasi pari certamine militiam eligens expeditam, cum eis censuit congrediendum leuem exercens armaturam, peronatus incedens, fasciis pectus et praeduro tectus corio, missilibus eorum leua obiectans ancilia et in eos contorquens nunc spicula, nunc mucronem exerens, sic fugientium uestigiis inherebat ut premeretur

Ioannis Saresberiensis episcopi Carnotensis Policratici, Volume 2, ed. by Clement C.J. Webb, 1909, p19

There's also Wace's Roman de Rou

Alquanz orent boenes coiriees, qu'il ont a lor uentres liées; plusors orent uestu gambais, colures orent ceinz et tarchais;

(Maistre Wace's Roman de Rou et des ducs de Normandie, ed. by Hugo Andresen, 1877, p334-335)

and Walter Map

Rex noster eciam Henricus secundus ab omnibus terris suis arcet hereseos noue dampnosissimam sectam, que scilicet ore confitetur de Christo quicquid et nos, sed factis multorum milium turmis, quas ruttas uocant, armati penitus a uertice ad plantas corio, calibe, fustibus et ferro monasteria, uillas, urbes in fauillas redigunt, adulteria uiolenter et sine deletu perpetrant, pleno corde dicentes 'Non est Deus'.

(De nugis curialium ed. and tr. M. R. James, C. N. L. Brooke, and R. A. B. Mynors. 1983, p118)

From about the same time.
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jun, 2019 4:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From "fasciis pectus et praeduro tectus corio" I'm getting "covered chest with very tough leather."
Leonard Parker
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Fri 21 Jun, 2019 6:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I found something interesting. Corium, corietum and corietis. These seem to be some kind of leather armour. Here a corietis or stiched tunic is recommended for a duel: https://books.google.com/books?id=SzZFAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA214&lpg=PA214&dq=corietis&source=bl&ots=SF-_CDwQbY&sig=ACfU3U1m6n6q2fqHhjWTW5KZ_LF84hLwtA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwii6Iy3xfriAhXJwVkKHfHiCDYQ6AEwCHoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=corietis&f=false
Leonard Parker
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Sat 22 Jun, 2019 4:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is the translation for Wace: https://books.google.com/books?id=bV8EAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA172#v=onepage&q&f=false Not sure how accurate it is.

Wace describing the Irish in Roman De Brut: "His men were naked to their adversaries, having neither helmets nor coats of leather nor shields."

Leonard Parker
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Sun 30 Jun, 2019 8:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some more info on leather armour here: https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/8v1gai/the_real_truth_about_leather_armour/
He has another mention of leather armour in the Chronique des Ducs de Normandie, written between 1180-1200.

Leonard Parker
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Sun 30 Jun, 2019 8:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cuir bouilli in Froissart:

Book IV Chapter III

The Saracens were much afraid of the Genoese crossbows: they shielded themselves as well as they could against their bolts, but they are not armed so strongly as the Christians; for they know not the art to forge armour like theirs, nor have they workmen who could make such. Iron and steel are not commen among them; and they wear light targets hanging on their necks, covered with boiled leather from Cappadocia, that no spear can penetrate if the leather has not been overboiled.

Original: https://books.google.com/books?id=4LVdAAAAcAAJ&pg=PP272#v=onepage&q&f=false

Leonard Parker
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Sun 30 Jun, 2019 9:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Froissart was pretty biased. We know that Middle Eastern smiths were as good as European ones. The arms and armour of the upper classes on both sides were pretty similar.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Sun 30 Jun, 2019 9:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Len Parker wrote:
Here is the translation for Wace: https://books.google.com/books?id=bV8EAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA172#v=onepage&q&f=false Not sure how accurate it is.

Wace describing the Irish in Roman De Brut: "His men were naked to their adversaries, having neither helmets nor coats of leather nor shields."

The translation was done in 1837. Many of these Victorian texts translate loricum as "leather armour" when it simply means "armour". We need the original language.

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