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Brian Robson
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 Posted: Tue 25 Oct, 2011 3:38 am Post subject: |
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Just thought this discussion may throw in a bit of 'food for thought'.
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...p;t=131492
It's talk of a 15c method of making leather armour - which involves glueing two layers together. Obviously we don't know how long this method was in use, but I wonder if it opens up the possibility of layers of reindeer hide glued together?
*Edit - forgot to add the link - fixed now.
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Tue 25 Oct, 2011 4:29 am Post subject: |
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Dave; There is a very significant difference: In the early middle ages, norse culture as a separate entity effectively ceases to exist. The scandinavian countries are effectively assimilated into western christendom. There is a reason pepole think of "vikings" as a people, while medevial norwegians, danes or swedes are just people from their respective countries.
Thus, Merovingian influence on Scandinavia is much less profound than the medevial "assimilation".
This said, in the late 12th century, there are contemporary written sources describing indivduals using lammelar, though the wast majority use mail. It is probable that such incidental use might have occured in earlier periods as well, but as armor was generally a lot rarer in these eras, it would be proportionally less common.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Tue 25 Oct, 2011 4:49 am Post subject: Re: Leather armour |
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| David Huggins wrote: | | My point is using a similar construct and knowing of the use of metal lamellar plate in Merovingain Frankia |
We know no such thing. It is likely that the Franks had scale armour but there is nothing to suggest that lamellar was used.
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Johan Gemvik
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| Posted: Tue 25 Oct, 2011 7:15 am Post subject: |
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I suspect David actually referred to the frankish scale armour.
But the distinction in this case can be said to be rater vague at times. If by definition scale is plates only connected to backing leather or fabric and lamellar is plates connected to and supporting each other, then there's still what outward looks like scale but is actually connected with chain links in rows in hybrid lamellar/ scale fashion and also entire shirts which are then lamellar with or without added backing that will look the same. Say in historical art.
Is Merovingian type scale only pure true scale in every single find so far?
"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Gary Teuscher
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| Posted: Tue 25 Oct, 2011 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The most common thickness of Scandinavian reindeer leather on the market is 0.9-1.3 mm. Finding a reindeer leather that is 1.4-2 mm is difficult at least from Swedish suppliers. Asiatic reindeer and Canadian caribou might yield thicker hides as they are somewhat larger than their Scandinavian cousin. |
Well, finding cowhide thicker than 3mm-3.5 mm (7.5-8.75 oz) is uncommon as well from current suppliers. In modern commercial leather, the thicker hides are normally split. That's a function of market, not of the thickness of leather.
If you want real thick leather for a garment, even from cowhide, you need to take only the thickest parts, and it would take even a couple of modern cows to make a buff coat in the 5mm range. I don't know how thick reindeer hide can be - but it is thciker than some of the other domestic animals, other than cattle.
But I would agree, cattle would be more widely used by far I would think. The only thing that could be a bit different though from current cow leather - cows were smaller cack then, about 2/3 of the hieght, about 50% of the surface area. I don't know if this directly correlates to hide thickness as well, i.e. 50% thinner than current cowhide, though either way I think it would be somehwat of a factor.
| Quote: | | In the rest of europe, it would seem cloth armour came into use in the late 11th century. Quite posibly as a direct influence from byzantine equipment given to early crusaders. |
I would think earlier. The Chulainn garment to me is a clear literary indication of use in Ireland by about 1000 AD. And add to this the fact the Irish are usually considered more of a backwater than the rest of europe.
While the Irish hero Cu Chulainn if he even existed probably did not wear quilt, the author was very very likley discussing practices in his day. It is just far too detailed of a description that mirrors later gambesons or jacks for it to be anything else than an indication that mutli-layered cloth garments were used as armour during this time.
As to whether or not the Vikings wore it - it is of course speculation. Some will point out pictorial evidence of things that look like a thicker quilted garment - but this could really be anything, bad artistry of normal clothing.
It's not mentioned anywhere in Scandanavian literature during the Viking era - but there are very very few clear references of it's use even in europe prior to the 1181 assize. Does that mean a gambeson just burst on the scene in England in 1181 without prior use? No, it just means that is the earliest record we have of it.
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Len Parker
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| Posted: Tue 25 Oct, 2011 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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Othere's visit with Alfred the Great should answer any questions about where the norse got there reindeer, and their bearskin coats from. http://www.viking.no/e/travels/navigation/e-ottar.htm Unfortunately nothing about armour.
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Gary Teuscher
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| Posted: Tue 25 Oct, 2011 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting passage, Len. Looks as though there was a lot of trade and/or tribute carried on with the Lapplanders and their herds of reindeer.
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David Huggins
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| Posted: Wed 26 Oct, 2011 3:50 am Post subject: Leather |
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Once again we digress,
Elling, I appreciate the differences between what most folk would consider the Viking Age and the later medieval period but in truth the christianisation of the Scandinavian countries was more or less complete with perhaps the exception of Sweden if Adam of Bremen is to be believed and the odd back sliding from Svein Forkbeard and Jarl Hakon but yes the age of the vikings was effectively over by the end of the 11th C.
Dan see her, I have mentioned these examples in previous lamellar threads, but with respect, you always seem to choose to ignore them,but just to be certain I am speaking of Merovingian Frankia, not Carolingian Frankia, lamellar not scale.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=lRl0yU0wQF...mp;f=false
I can provide links to images if required.
A friend and fellow forumite, Matt Bunker also would be able to provide a link to his online photos of Langobardic artifacts including metal lamellar when he visited some of the usual tourist track museums in Italy.
best
Dave
and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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David Huggins
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| Posted: Wed 26 Oct, 2011 4:29 am Post subject: |
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Merovingian Age metal lamellar
Kreffeld-Gellup & Neiderstotzingen examples can be viewed here
http://livinghistory.cz/node/77
Of course this is pre-viking age, Carolingian Frankia would be more appropiate to the period in the thread, and again in Novgorod prior to the Mongol invasion we have examples of lamellar, perhaps even an established workshop, where differing types of lamellar plates are been produced. It should be said that Novgorod, a city-state founded by the Russ was certainly within the cultural milleiu of Scandinavia
best
Dave
and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Wed 26 Oct, 2011 4:42 am Post subject: |
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These lamellars are central Asian in origin. They only appear in this part of Europe while the Avars were in ascendance and stop appearing in the record when the Avars fell. The most obvious conclusion is that the Avars and their allies wore the armour and the Franks did not. Otherwise this armour would continue to appear in the record after the Avars fall out of power.
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Johan Gemvik
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| Posted: Wed 26 Oct, 2011 4:51 am Post subject: |
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Dan, avars woudn't have mattered with the lamellar finds at Birka from actual Viking age you know.
Yes, I know, Birka is a unique site and may be an unusual import to western europe not seen elsewhere, but still.
There is a point where even you have to question the validity of the standpoint no lamellar ever existed in europe (until early medieval). Except for Merovingian Novgorod, and viking age Birka. And early, at times very early medieval all over Poland and the rest of eastern Europe. Was there really this Avar gap and then the islamic states plugged it with export at the very turn of 1200? I mean sure, it's possible certainly but most things like this come gradually not in a sudden flash flood at a turn of a century.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but please be patient with the rest of us questioning it and digging where X logically seems to mark a spot. 
"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Wed 26 Oct, 2011 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| Johan Gemvik wrote: | | Dan, avars woudn't have mattered with the lamellar finds at Birka from actual Viking age you know. |
The lamellar at Birka has been shown to have been identical to that worn by the Khazar but where it was found makes it impossible to tell who might have worn it
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Gary Teuscher
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| Posted: Wed 26 Oct, 2011 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Dan, avars woudn't have mattered with the lamellar finds at Birka from actual Viking age you know. |
| Quote: | | The lamellar at Birka has been shown to have been identical to that worn by the Khazar but where it was found makes it impossible to tell who might have worn it |
I would guess it was not uncommon for cultures in close contact with Steppe people or Byzantines to have used lammelar aquired in trade, being mercenaries for, etc. etc.
But it seems the manufacture of such never caught on in most of Western Europe for some reason, why I do not know.
Perhaps the reason for the use of lammelar is that it was about the most effective way leather could be used as armour for a possibly metal poor culture like steppe nomads? We do have at least 1 example of hardened leather lammelar in use by steppe nomads in Roman times. Perhaps that is why it never caught on as well in Europe which was perhaps less metal poor?
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Len Parker
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Len Parker
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| Posted: Wed 26 Oct, 2011 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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I also wanted to show these images of what they're calling lamellar. http://tgorod.ru/index.php?topgroupid=2&g...tentid=294 Fig. 2 looks similar to the carolingian image, and Fig. 4 from Broddetorp is interesting. Can't really tell if they're scale or lamellar though. Notice the way some of these go from the chest to the hips. Does'nt Cu Chulainn's leather armour do this. I believe in the King's Mirror there's a description of iron plate being worn like this under maille.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Wed 26 Oct, 2011 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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You can't use those figures as evidence. If you want to interpret them literally then you'd have to conclude that Carolingians are short fat dwarves with pointy heads.
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David Huggins
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| Posted: Thu 27 Oct, 2011 2:10 am Post subject: Leather armour |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | These lamellars are central Asian in origin. They only appear in this part of Europe while the Avars were in ascendance and stop appearing in the record when the Avars fell. The most obvious conclusion is that the Avars and their allies wore the armour and the Franks did not. Otherwise this armour would continue to appear in the record after the Avars fall out of power. |
Irrespective of their origin, they appear to have been adopted by Franks and Alamans and Langobards in as much the same way as returning Crusaders would return to Western Erope and adopt Muslim and Byzantine armour miles hundreds of miles away from the power base of those cltures.
You could equally argue that some constituents of the burial ritual where no longer deemed appropiate as these people changed belief.
best
Dave
and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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David Huggins
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| Posted: Thu 27 Oct, 2011 2:50 am Post subject: Leather |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | You can't use those figures as evidence. If you want to interpret them literally then you'd have to conclude that Carolingians are short fat dwarves with pointy heads. |
'
The answer is that it is likely to show infanticide, perhaps the slaughter of the innocents from the New Testement, having said that medieval art is not known for its prospective so the comment is no less valid then Len's.
best
Dave
and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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David Huggins
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David Huggins
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| Posted: Fri 28 Oct, 2011 4:24 am Post subject: Re: Leather |
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| David Huggins wrote: | | Dan Howard wrote: | | You can't use those figures as evidence. If you want to interpret them literally then you'd have to conclude that Carolingians are short fat dwarves with pointy heads. |
'
The answer is that it is likely to show infanticide, perhaps the slaughter of the innocents from the New Testement, having said that medieval art is not known for its prospective so the comment is no less valid then Len's.
best
Dave |
My apologies ,I typed that reply when otherwise distracted. What I meant to say was ,
The answer is that Fig2 is likely to show infanticide, perhaps the slaughter of the innocents from the New testement, having said that medieval art is not known for its prospective so in my own opinion Len's comment and observation is no less valid.
best
Dave
and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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This is a standard topic