Leather Armour: Viking/Medieval -- myArmoury.com

Jonathan Dean · Posted: Mon 01 Jul, 2019 1:09 am Post subject:

Translation of Chroniques.

Elisabeth van Houts translates the line from the Roman de Rou as:

Len Parker · Posted: Tue 02 Jul, 2019 9:44 am Post subject:

This looks interesting: https://books.google.com/books?id=CCQMAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA133#v=onepage&q&f=false

I'm translating this as "with tunics from leather very cooked." I can't locate this, so I don't know whether this is pertaining to english or normans.

Jonathan Dean · Posted: Tue 02 Jul, 2019 12:15 pm Post subject:

Len Parker · Posted: Tue 02 Jul, 2019 12:55 pm Post subject:

I just found it here: https://books.google.com/books?id=-iIsAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA67&lpg=RA1-PA67&dq=The+Anglo-Norman+metrical+chronicle+of+Geoffrey+Gaimar+cortis&source=bl&ots=MbGkPNjdov&sig=ACfU3U18g9AUVEUxZS3p5W-nRPf60GWQFQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiyrIjC-pbjAhWwhOAKHcv3BmUQ6AEwC3oECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=The%20Anglo-Norman%20metrical%20chronicle%20of%20Geoffrey%20Gaimar%20cortis&f=false

It's from the Anglo-Norman metrical chroncle of Geoffrey Gaimar. I'm reading "cum feltreis togis pice et resina," which sounds like they're dipping something in pitch and resin. This might be the oldest mention of a gambeson. I might be wrong, but I think they're describing Hereward's men.

Len Parker · Posted: Tue 02 Jul, 2019 4:08 pm Post subject:

I found it together with the translation: https://books.google.com/books?id=DQ1JAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PA29&lpg=RA2-PA29&dq=feltreis+togis+pice+et+resina&source=bl&ots=cpdDG3jN5-&sig=ACfU3U0M07szy0ZjWFmI-hKuqWSwJulj_Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjk_c_Wp5fjAhXHY98KHQ9wDIoQ6AEwBnoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=feltreis%20togis%20pice%20et%20resina&f=false

"And they were girt and protected with these arms: with coats of felt dipped in pitch and resin and incense, or tunics strongly made of leather...."

If this is right, we have anglo/danes wearing some kind of gambesons or leather armour.

Dan Howard · Posted: Tue 02 Jul, 2019 4:51 pm Post subject:

Len Parker · Posted: Tue 02 Jul, 2019 5:32 pm Post subject:

Dan, they're about to go into battle: "And they were girt and protected with these arms: with coats of felt dipped in pitch and resin and incense, or tunics strongly made of leather...." I think it's pretty clear there wearing something for protection. I was wrong about them being anglo/danes. These are zeelanders.

Let me add that this Hereward story is clearly fantasy, but that doesn't necessarily mean the writer is inventing fantasy armour.

Dan Howard · Posted: Wed 03 Jul, 2019 6:17 am Post subject:

The word "arms" was a general word that described everything a fighter takes into battle - including clothing. The Greek equivalent is panoplia ("panoply"). A waterproof cloak/coat would be part of a fighter's "arms". You've got some texts with good circumstantial evidence for medieval leather armour but this is not one of them.

Len Parker · Posted: Wed 03 Jul, 2019 1:56 pm Post subject:

So you're saying that in the middle of a battle scene the poet stops to inform the audience of the warriors fashionable rainwear, and also the details of their construction. Now back to the carnage.

Dan Howard · Posted: Wed 03 Jul, 2019 3:46 pm Post subject:

Pitch and resin were used as waterproofing agents on clothing; they have never been used on textile armour. Unless the text specifically uses a term that means "armour", or says that the garment was intended to stop weapon attacks, it isn't valid reference, especially since this is a translation. We'd need someone to do a literal translation rather than the literary ones we usually get.

Len Parker · Posted: Wed 03 Jul, 2019 4:44 pm Post subject:

I've tried to translate this as best I could. All I'm getting is that they're angry, they're preparing for war, they girt their weapons, then the construction of these garments, then the description of their weapons. Everything about this is war. Stopping to describe how raincoats are made doesn't make much sense.

Matthew Amt · Posted: Thu 04 Jul, 2019 5:22 am Post subject:

As rarely as I disagree with my "twin brother" Dan, this sounds a LOT like the descriptions of the Highlanders' jacks at Flodden (1513), covered with pitched deerhides. Granted, the idea of all these wild guys running around in patchwork black leather makes me gag a bit, but at least it doesn't mention studs...

I'm voting "armor".

Matthew

Len Parker · Posted: Fri 05 Jul, 2019 7:07 am Post subject:

A few mentions of Ragnar using pitch and sand to make armour: https://books.google.com/books?id=1Z5ZAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA72#v=onepage&q&f=false

Jonathan Dean · Posted: Fri 05 Jul, 2019 8:43 am Post subject:

Len Parker · Posted: Fri 05 Jul, 2019 9:38 am Post subject:

I think you're describing different versions of this. The frozen ice armour is in Saxo's version. I agree, this is a fantasy saga, but they're still associating pitch with making armour.

Mark Millman · **On Friday 5 July 2019, you wrote:**

Dear Mr. Parker,

Len Parker · Posted: Fri 05 Jul, 2019 2:32 pm Post subject:

I probably shouldn't have dragged Ragnar's serpent fighting armour into this conversation. It was just the mention of pitch that got my attention.

Matthew saying "all these wild guys running around in patchwork black leather" made me think of black norse, black host and black danes. And also this from the King's Mirror: "gambeson made of soft linen thoroughly blackened."

The king's Mirror is 1250. Geoffrey Gaimar is writing in the 1130's, but the Hereward story takes place in the 1060's. This might add some validity to Wace having leather and gambesons in 1066.

Mikko Kuusirati · Posted: Fri 05 Jul, 2019 10:29 pm Post subject:

I've never heard of "pitch and resin" (tar?) used for making armor, but they are traditional weatherproofing commonly used at least here in Finland up through the early 20th Century, on everything from boats to boots, and describing weatherproofed overcoats (or gambesons, if that's what they are) makes good enough sense to me in a description of a group of soldiers. These garments may or may not be armor, as such, but either way I would think that the pitch and resin have nothing to do with their protective quality and are just mentioned as a visually prominent detail of the group's outfit.

Len Parker · Posted: Sun 07 Jul, 2019 5:04 am Post subject:

I don't think Geoffrey Gaimar wrote this version. He wrote his in french, this is in latin. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereward_the_Wake the Gesta Herewardi was written around 1109-31. To add to the confusion I believe there's another version written by Hugh Candidus sometime later.

As whether this is meant to be armour or not, one text says: "coria valde coctis" another "coria valde cortis" which I'm translating as leather strongly cooked.