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Kenneth Enroth
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 Posted: Mon 31 May, 2004 6:42 am Post subject: The term "morningstar" |
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Hi
I was wondering when the term morningstar was coined? Is it a period term or a later invention. Also, does it refer to all weapons with spiked balls or only to the flail variety? Is a knobbed head also a morningstar or must it feature spikes?
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David McElrea
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| Posted: Mon 31 May, 2004 11:49 am Post subject: |
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Hi Kenneth,
To the best of my knowledge the morgenstern ("morningstar" in English) is, properly speaking, a mace with a spiked head-- this is as opposed to the flail (therscol) which is commonly (and mistakenly) called a morningstar today.
I don't know how the morningstar got its name, but wouldn't be surprised if it had a somewhat humorous origin-- the same weapon was also called a "godendag" (meaning "good day!  ).
Hope that helps,
David
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L. Jong
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| Posted: Mon 31 May, 2004 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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may or may not be connected to how it got its name, but morning star also means a planet that rises before the sun (usually venus)
perhaps the spiked head of the mace resembled a star. Thats just a stab in the dark though
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Geoff Wood
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| Posted: Mon 31 May, 2004 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| David McElrea wrote: | Hi Kenneth,
To the best of my knowledge the morgenstern ("morningstar" in English) is, properly speaking, a mace with a spiked head-- this is as opposed to the flail (therscol) which is commonly (and mistakenly) called a morningstar today.
I don't know how the morningstar got its name, but wouldn't be surprised if it had a somewhat humorous origin-- the same weapon was also called a "godendag" (meaning "good day! ).
Hope that helps,
David |
David
I may be way off here and this link may have ben discredited, but it suggests that a godendag or goedendag is quite different from a morningstar.
http://www.liebaart.org/goeden_e.htm
I came across it a little while back in a spin-off from a similar discussion and I've been trying to get hold of the parts to try and make one (a bucket spike off a bobcat loader is the current favourite for the pointy end).
Geoff
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David McElrea
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| Posted: Mon 31 May, 2004 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Geoff,
Thanks for the correction-- I hadn't realised there was such a weapon as the one shown on the link-- I had also assumed the godendag/goedendag was German. Flemish... hmm!
I appreciate it,
David
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Dan Tucker
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| Posted: Mon 31 May, 2004 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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isn't it interesting how people in the middle ages gave such pleasant names to their spiked implements of painful death? "good day", "morning star", and "holy water sprinkler". somebody back then must have had a sense of humor
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Geoff Wood
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| Posted: Mon 31 May, 2004 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| David McElrea wrote: | Hi Geoff,
Thanks for the correction-- I hadn't realised there was such a weapon as the one shown on the link-- I had also assumed the godendag/goedendag was German. Flemish... hmm!
I appreciate it,
David |
Hi David
Well, I'm not sure it's a correction, just another opinion, but it seems to fairly well backed up. I, like you, have seen goedendags (or whatever the correct plural is) equated with morningstars and even with halberds. These ones put me in mind of upmarket digging sticks for breaking up hard ground. A lot of weapons seem to have had agricultural forebears.
Regards
Geoff
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Kenneth Enroth
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| Posted: Mon 31 May, 2004 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Tucker wrote: | | isn't it interesting how people in the middle ages gave such pleasant names to their spiked implements of painful death? "good day", "morning star", and "holy water sprinkler". somebody back then must have had a sense of humor |
Perhaps the name is meant to give positive feelings by associating with something pleasant.
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Geoff Wood
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| Posted: Mon 31 May, 2004 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Tucker wrote: | | isn't it interesting how people in the middle ages gave such pleasant names to their spiked implements of painful death? "good day", "morning star", and "holy water sprinkler". somebody back then must have had a sense of humor |
Hi Dan
I think black 'humorous' or more friendly sounding naming continues into more modern times (Chicago piano, Peacemaker [either one], Ronson, Stalin's banjo etc.). Other trades and professions have pet names for their equipment. Maybe soldiers need a laugh more than most.
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Felix Wang
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| Posted: Mon 31 May, 2004 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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And the famed Molotov Cocktail. As I understand, it was devised by the Finns as an anti-tank weapon when they were invaded by the Soviets (whose Foreign Minister was Mr. Molotov). It is a sardonic title, I think.
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Herbert Schmidt
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| Posted: Tue 01 Jun, 2004 12:11 am Post subject: |
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What about the "Arkansas Toothpick"?
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Joachim Nilsson
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| Posted: Tue 01 Jun, 2004 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| Dan Tucker wrote: | | isn't it interesting how people in the middle ages gave such pleasant names to their spiked implements of painful death? "good day", "morning star", and "holy water sprinkler". somebody back then must have had a sense of humor |
Most definately. 
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This is a standard topic