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Marcos Cantu
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Bennison N
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 Posted: Thu 07 May, 2009 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Steven H wrote: | | Ultimately even a crappy hit from a four foot sharpened steel lever is gonna be a serious problem. So much so that test cutting does not seem to have been a part of any sword practice that I know until the modern era - when the swords weren't often used in combat anymore. |
I agree entirely with this. All it takes is for an artery to be cut or a muscle/tendon taken off the bone to cause serious ouchy. And I also think we have to take into consideration the hygiene/infection issue, which in a lot, maybe even the majority, of cases would end in amputation anyway.
"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius
अजयखड्गधारी
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Ken Speed
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| Posted: Fri 08 May, 2009 11:31 am Post subject: |
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For what its worth, I tend to fall into the camp of those who maintain that generally the skill of the swordsman is more important than the type of sword he's using. Apparently there were duels between Japanese and Portuguese swordsmen when the Portuguese were in feudal era Japan and the outcomes were neither one sided or predictable Sometimes the Samurai won and sometimes he didn't.
It would seem to me that if you posit a duel between a European style swordsman and a Japanese style swordsman in which both participants are unversed in the style of the other the Samurai could be taken by surprise by the length of the lunge that is possible when a sword is wielded in one hand and a European swordsman could be overcome by the force and speed of a cut from a katana.
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Todd M. Sullivan
Location: Upstate New York Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 69
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| Posted: Fri 08 May, 2009 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| George Hill wrote: | | Douglas G. wrote: | Consider this comparison, canned versus bottled beer. Some will contend that bottled beer tastes better therefore it
is superior. Others will counter the can is lighter and more durable, allowing the canned beer to be more safely taken
and add to the enjoyment of remote and scenic places. These are both good aguements, but I think more research
needs to be done. I'm heading to the 'fridge!
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Bah. There's no contest there. Bottled beer is much better. IT TASTES better, drinks better, is healthier for you because of the lack of bits of aluminum in your drink..... (Which is also why it tastes better.)
Bottled beer wins EVERY time. EVERYONE knows that.
Now a better contest is which brand..... |
O.K. George...I'll bite. Guiness is in my top 3. It is also better out of the tap vs the bottle, warm or cold. But a free Guiness taste the best. It also goes down faster and tastes better than most japanese beers but japan has 1 beer in my top 3 but not #1. Then of course Suchi and Beer together is a favorite evening of mine to enjoy.
Bring it 
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Branch Shepherd
Location: Indianapolis via Iceland Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Fri 08 May, 2009 12:59 pm Post subject: Katana vs longsword |
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The unarmoured combat bit makes the whole argument moot. The longsword and most of its forms and styles incorporated armour, even a mail byrne, conical helm and shield. would give the Katana a painful time. Also that long sword and katana are probly. within a few ounces of each other. The lemon wood shield alone is a formidable light, fast barrier, as well as a blind to hide attacks behind, and a striking weapon in its own right.
That said, the katana's defensive cuts and counter attacks would be a suprize for a Norman.
But it is still apples and oranges, the European sword evolved into the rapier and small sword for unarmoured combat, long deadly thrusts vs the quick cuts of a 28" straight razor, in equal skilled hands... its a crapshoot just like all combat.
also that Show the ultimate warrior...just bad 'experts' Who would take two spears against an archer?? also a 10th century
`Islander like Gunnar would Never 'fence' sword to sword, shield for defense and weapon for offense. a shortish spear would have been more likely and give more reach anyhow. took no account for shield technique to deflect blows from the Japanese club, which had to be truly SLOW after20 minutes of battle. the shows' 'experts ans "scientific' tests reek.
Gothan Dagin
"Don't enven dream of wearing that Rayon in here, Mr Napalm.
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David Teague
Location: Anchorage, Alaska Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Fri 08 May, 2009 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: Katana vs longsword |
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| Branch Shepherd wrote: | The unarmoured combat bit makes the whole argument moot. The longsword and most of its forms and styles incorporated armour, even a mail byrne, conical helm and shield. would give the Katana a painful time. Also that long sword and katana are probly. within a few ounces of each other. The lemon wood shield alone is a formidable light, fast barrier, as well as a blind to hide attacks behind, and a striking weapon in its own right.
That said, the katana's defensive cuts and counter attacks would be a suprize for a Norman. |
Er... Norman?
The "longsword" we are referring to here would be the types kicking around Europe in the later 14th & 15th centuries, not the one handed arming sword of the Normans and their ilk.
While longswords were carried by those in harness, there is a rich history of fighting the longsword unarmoured.
The fact of the matter, both the longsword and the katana are meant to use used on flesh, not armour.
In harness fighting, the longsword is used as a spear, poleaxe, or dagger... but not as a sword as swords don't do squat to a white harness when swung as a sword.
In my mind's eye I see two swordsmen meeting in period clothing, one Japanese, the other German (hey, I study German longsword, ok?) in hose & doublet. The swords come out, one man dies...
Cheers,
David
This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.
Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild
"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Steven H
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| Posted: Fri 08 May, 2009 9:48 pm Post subject: Re: Katana vs longsword |
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| Branch Shepherd wrote: |
That said, the katana's defensive cuts and counter attacks would be a suprize for a Norman.
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Um, are you suggesting that the Longswordsman wouldn't have any surprises for the katana wielder? That's an assertion to which I'd have to object. The set of techniques for the longsword is deep and varied. It includes a number of defensive cuts and a wide variety of counter attacks.
The length of the longsword allows for a variety of single time defenses that do not exist for shorter blades (including European single-handed swords). Perhaps the katana swordsman would be surprised by those techniques (the Meisterhau) or be surprised by winden, or mutieren or duplieren.
Cheers,
Steven
Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Sat 09 May, 2009 2:50 am Post subject: Re: Katana vs longsword |
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| Steven H wrote: | | The length of the longsword allows for a variety of single time defenses that do not exist for shorter blades (including European single-handed swords). |
Ehh...such single-time defenses exist, actually, or the Messer and Schwert plates in Talhoffer (which I had just been poring over last night) were flat-out lying. They also exist in most Japanese swordsmanship styles that I know of.
It's probably fair to say that, given skilled wielders on both sides, both the katana-wielder and the longswordsman would be surprised by all the **** that the other side can do...
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Steven H
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| Posted: Sat 09 May, 2009 6:55 am Post subject: Re: Katana vs longsword |
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| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: |
Ehh...such single-time defenses exist, actually, or the Messer and Schwert plates in Talhoffer (which I had just been poring over last night) were flat-out lying. They also exist in most Japanese swordsmanship styles that I know of. |
I know, but there are more single-time defenses and they work better if the sword is longer than the other guys arm i.e. a longsword. Lekuchner includes analogues to all of the Meisterhau but in practice they usually end up working as double-time actions, which is how they are shown. The only reliable single-time defense with a messer is the cut to the arm (which Talhoffer shows so graphically).
I'll admit that some of this is my opinion of how these techniques end up working and if you can make more of them work in single time than I can then I'd love to see them.
However, SPADA has a nice article on the essential divide between short weapons and long weapons and single time and double time defenses. In short if the weapon is shorter than the arm then single time defenses are less common.
| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: |
It's probably fair to say that, given skilled wielders on both sides, both the katana-wielder and the longswordsman would be surprised by all the **** that the other side can do... |
I see this as only partially true. A person with a good sense of timing, distance and who keeps their blade online may be surprised by what the other guy does but not enough to get hit.
First time I fenced against Fiore students I was surprised by the <upward short edge slashing defense>(I forget the name) they do; however I didn't get hit as a result.
I have been hit by newbs who surprised me with suicidally stupid things. (Which meant I needed to train more and better so that didn't happen again  )
Cheers,
Steven
Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Michael K Wislon
Location: Santa Rosa CA Joined: 03 Apr 2008
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Sat 09 May, 2009 9:36 am Post subject: |
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As a Noob on this board I thought I might chime in. I have been interested in swords since I was a kid. Who amoung us wasn't? I fenced in college, did the SCA thing , martial arts ,etc blah blah blah...I am in my mid 40's and thought I knew something about swords...boy was I wrong!!!
I might have thought along the same lines as the OP years ago. Finding places like this and ARMA and other sites really opened my eyes. Several years ago I was in a Boarders book store, I found a german Fechtbook on the shelf. I thumbed through it and was surpised. I had never seen anything like it before for western swordsmanship. The only thing close was a book on George Sliver that I found about 15 years before. I was amazed at the richness of western martial swordsmanship. I didn't have cash with me so i came back and it was gone. I started looking for for similiar books. That search was the best thing that ever happened.
I wouldn't be too hard on the OP, he probably started where we all did. But being here is a first step. I love this forum. Hopefully you have inspired the OP. I hope he is curious and keeps looking for answers.
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Branch Shepherd
Location: Indianapolis via Iceland Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Sat 09 May, 2009 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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The Point that I was trying to make(poorly evidently) was that martial sword arts are capable of equal levels of expertise. My reference to a Norman was due to that ultimate warrior show being on, and that all this one being superior stuff is hokum. the unarmoured comments I said stand. the samurai did use armour, and the 16th 17th century swordsmen did as well, for battle. Unarmoured could have been a rapier vs katana point vs cut, but that is beside the point, as one poster said 'they would suprize the crap out of each other." Personally, I think that either of them would be in trouble with a staff-man from either culture. But hey, that is just yet another opinion from someone guessing because I did not live there, or then(secret: none of us did). All us 'experts' probly. would not last a day tossed into that world*. But I would have to say that this site is chock full of the most reasoned, knowledgeable, and polite bunch of retrograde martial technicians that I have been able to find on the web.
Cheers!
*well, I am a black / blade smith, I might last twojavascript:emoticon(' ')
"Don't enven dream of wearing that Rayon in here, Mr Napalm.
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Douglas S
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| Posted: Mon 11 May, 2009 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Branch Shepherd wrote: | | The Point that I was trying to make(poorly evidently) was that martial sword arts are capable of equal levels of expertise. |
True enough. The danger is in confusing lack of information (on our part) with lack of skill (on the part of the bladesman).
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M. Eversberg II
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| Posted: Mon 11 May, 2009 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, were not here to judge, so don't lament.
M.
This space for rent or lease.
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Sat 16 May, 2009 6:57 am Post subject: Re: Katana vs longsword |
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| Steven H wrote: | I know, but there are more single-time defenses and they work better if the sword is longer than the other guys arm i.e. a longsword. Lekuchner includes analogues to all of the Meisterhau but in practice they usually end up working as double-time actions, which is how they are shown. The only reliable single-time defense with a messer is the cut to the arm (which Talhoffer shows so graphically).
I'll admit that some of this is my opinion of how these techniques end up working and if you can make more of them work in single time than I can then I'd love to see them.
However, SPADA has a nice article on the essential divide between short weapons and long weapons and single time and double time defenses. In short if the weapon is shorter than the arm then single time defenses are less common. |
This is exactly the kind of civilized disagreement I wanted to spark; it certainly gives me a lot of food for thought, and I'll probably be going over old videos and pictures of my practice sessions to reevaluate my ideas about how I use the techniques. In any case, the whole thing probably has something to do with my tendency to prefer swords that are (at least in Silver's opinion) a bit too long for my height and length of arm.
| Quote: | | I see this as only partially true. A person with a good sense of timing, distance and who keeps their blade online may be surprised by what the other guy does but not enough to get hit. |
Well, I didn't say a fatal surprise...
| Quote: | | I have been hit by newbs who surprised me with suicidally stupid things. (Which meant I needed to train more and better so that didn't happen again ) |
Actually, this might be a concern when there's a major difference in the combative paradigms of the two different cultures; if I recall correctly, some schools of Japanese martial arts hold that ai-uchi (mutual hits/kills) are acceptable, in contrast to European systems that tend to count such occurences as mutual defeats. This is even more apparent in the nonlethal sportified form (i.e. kendo), where suicidal assaults often seem to be the key to winning the bout.
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