[Steven Reich]

[Hugh Knight]

[Hugh Knight]

[Steven Reich]

[Alex Spreier]

Hi Hugh,

Dealing with a family emergency right now, so I will probably not be in this discussion for a few days. My wife's grandparents are in bad shape.

I will say that I see your point about Fiore. My personal project at the moment is to translate all of Fiore's axe material for my own benefit. I have some theories about exactly why he doesn't show these "bread and butter" axe techniques, but they aren't exactly too fleshed out yet. You can PM me for details.

As far as getting together, I'm in Oregon, but I plan on being at WMAW this year.

Well off to deal with life. Wish us luck.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

The trick is in the wood..

Quartersawn Ash is the proper material... or Ash Saplings ( we are going to plant some at one of the members farm so we will have a ready supply of shafts in about 3 years )

We never break a shaft in practice.. but always break them in tournaments...The recent tournament saw 2 shafts broken

The heads.. we are unhappy with the currently available heads.. we liked the Valentine ones with some mods... but they are no longer available

One of our members is a theatrical make up and prop artist.. she says she can cast whatever we want from high density metal filled rubber... so we have a prototyping project about to launch.

On the issue of Techniques.. Fiore has LOADS of techniques with the Butt end..

First remedy with sword in one hand... addresses covers with the butt .. many of the dagger plays can be done with the polaxe ..As can all the plays of the spear.. If you know the system everything is there.. I you are just looking at the polaxe plays and what you can see in the book Vs what is to be known in the book I could see how you would find it lacking..

But its not the system that is lacking.

I have Scholars who have been taught nothing but Fiore.. who in their axe play do everything that is in Le Jeu and everything that is in any of the German sources.

[Hugh Knight]

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Hugh.... I can't make the blind see ... If I could.. I would not be puddling around in a forum at 1:30 at night.. half drunk on Port.

The plays are not "shown" but the lessons and skills that lead to these actions are learned in the study of the system.

The plays of Fiore are designed to teach lessons about fighting.. the insightful student will apply all the lessons to every fight regardless of the weapon in hand. When this is done a full spectrum of combative possibilites is realized.

If my Scholars can perform all the actions that you describe .. and they only system they have EVER been taught is Fiore.. clearly the lessons that lead to these actions is encumbant in the system.

Because you can't see that from your study does not mean that it is not true...

By the way.. it is nice to see that some things are constant in the world...

[Hugh Knight]

[Christian Henry Tobler]

Hi Brian!

That's just it: a system uses plays to illuminate principles. Not every possible play need be shown. Some plays are inferred from combinations of others, informed by the system's fundamentals. But then you already know that.

Such extrapolation is just as true in Liechtenauer's art as in Fiore's, despite the seeming completeness of the battery of surviving plays for the axe in German sources. For instance, it's trivial to perform the fundamental "Zornhau-Ort" play with the poleaxe, even though it's never described explicitly (I do it all the time). [For those unfamiliar with the term, this is downward blow with the sword against an opponent's blow, which then places a thrust into his face.]

BTW...How'd you break the hafts? - are these thinner than the Revival.us octagonal ones? I'm just curious because ours seem all but indestructible.

All the best,

Christian

[Jason G. Smith]

From the poleaxe poste, particularly the true cross, you get that same type of parry with the queue that is described in the Jeu, ending with the buttspike on line with the face in Posta serpentina lo soprano, although the grip is somewhat different. If you use a variant of the true cross, the bastard cross, it becomes even easier to get to that position.

It's a timing thing - parrying with the head puts you on the same plane, and is slower than the queue - as Hugh so aptly pointed out. This is the same motion used to set aside a blow in the spada en arme, which coincidentally is the same principle applied to the spada a una mano section of the MS - which is also the same lesson taught when blocking a dagger attack with the right hand and carrying it over to the left into an arm bar or other remedy from the 3rd master of dagger. You're isolating the opponent's right side.

You shouldn't need someone to spell it out for you perforce.

Like I tell my students - wrestling is dagger is sword is...

And thank you, Brian, for puddling around on the internet half-soused. I had never thought to include the una mano section when referring to the poleaxe. I usually stop at the spada en arme in my backward-reference. I'm enlightenend somewhat, although it doesn't change the system itself all that much, it's a small piece of the puzzle that had eluded me.

[Christian Henry Tobler]

Hi Jason!

That's a thing, sometimes neglected by practitioners of diverse systems, that the guards/postae/leger are in themselves techniques and potentialities for them.

Cheers,

CHT

[Jason G. Smith]

[Alex Spreier]

[Brian McIlmoyle]

From the perspective of attacks with the axe.. one has exactly the same 7 possible lines of attack as with the sword.. .. the lessons of the "seven swords" or Segno page should be applied to the problem. Just as it should be applied to all combative problems. ( this is indeed true as I use the Segno in my Firearms Combatives training as well)

Fiore does not show many hooking actions but plenty of opportunities to use the weapon to hook fall out of the play.. If you keep in mind the principles to fight from a cover, strike in the most vulnerable places, strive to tie up.. dislocate the limbs, disarm and cast your companion down where he can be killed... you don't need a play by play specific description... The axe play is late in the material.. because you must include everything that came before in its use.

When I say you may perform Dagger plays.. I mean the butt of the axe may be used to perform the same actions as your arm may ... you can affect disarms.. and keys in the same manner as you do unarmed. This takes substantial sensitivity to perform.. but experience has shown that it can be done.

The specific plays illustrated with the axe provide lessons that are true to the axe specifically.. the fact that there are so few illustrates just how similar the use of the axe is to the use of the sword and the spear. By the time you take up the axe you should already know what should be done. All you need do is integrate the character of the weapon into the fight. Fiore's axe plays are lessons defining the character of the Axe.

There is no such thing as "axe fighting" just as "sword fighting" is also a misnomer .. There is only fighting.. and it may be done with an axe.. or a sword...or a beer stein if necessary.

[Andrew Maxwell]

Hello all,

with all due respect to Mr Tobler et al (and I do have the utmost respect for Mr Tobler and his knowledge of medieval martial arts), I have to agree with Mr Knight here. Plays which are not explicit in the manuscripts are not "part" of that system as far as we are aware. While we can extrapolate plays which are "likely", we can not be sure they were known by the authors, it's simply a guess (even if it does seem to be a probable one).

[Christian Henry Tobler]

Hi Andrew,

[Andrew Maxwell]

Hi Christian,

In the broad sense, I absolutely agree with what you are saying. I don't expect the manuscripts to be a complete fighting manual, as a person today might expect, with all the minutiae covered. They simply weren't written like that, and as a student of the Liechtenauer tradition myself, I am also aware of the need for interpretation and extrapolation to create more than a bare-bones system.

On the other hand, it is quite easy to move from extrapolation to addition or even invention. No two masters would have had exactly the same body of knowledge, and the suggestion sometimes seems to be that "master X knew this, therefore master Y knew it and just chose not to include it". To me this is quite different to "master X mentions this but doesn't describe it, therefore we'll perform it as master Y explains it because they probably did it the same way".

I don't know if I am explaining that very well; essentially I guess I am just trying to empasise that internal consistency of one system is not equivalent to consistency across different systems, if you see what I am saying? Also, partly what I was pointing out is that the contents of the manuscript is the only part we can be definitively sure of. That doesn't mean we should consider that the "entire" system, but we do need to be very careful how we extrapolate from that point if we are to maintain the original system and not simply create a hybrid of our own.

Best regards,
Andy

[Greg Mele]

Hi all,

Very late to the game on this thread.

The poleaxe material in the Anonymous Bolognese uses four guards: left and right guardia alta, left and right porta di ferro stretta (left and right vom Tag, left and right Ochs, for you German types). Although a reasonably short treatise - say twice the length of what is found in the text treatise of the second Kal Ms, it includes most of the basic actions of poleaxe combat. Besides some basic advice on striking with both ends of the weapon, you have:

1. a displacement with the haft and heel strike
2. the same done from the bind, axe head to axehead.
3. The collar throw with the haft, done from an initial parry, a bind, and as part of a winding action.
4. A counter to the same.
5. From a cross at the haft, a thrust with the heel into the groin or the top of the foot.
6. A collar hook with the "beak".
7. A knee hook with the same.
8. Using your beak to hook his axe from his hands.
9. A counter to the same.
10. A feint that draws a parry and falls under his weapon to thrust him.

That's most of the categories of material, from the top of my head. I am probably missing a play or two. But frankly, that is a pretty good summation of axe combat in a nut shell, and as much as I've seen in any one text other than Le Jeu.

With Monte the same feint appears, a disarm, and some rather nasty tactical advice about targeting the hands.

Fiore - OK, I will explain one it is contained and why I think this is just as complete as most other sources, and Hugh, you can come along for the ride or not as you choose. Fiore's six plays of the axe are there to detail *one unique situation of axe play* - that is when the mass of both weapons being swung with a blow, bears both of their front ends to the ground. This is part of what makes it notably different from play of the sword in armour - the mass of the hammer/axe head can often result in a low crossing, rather than a high one. In that sense, the disarms, leg trip, visor-lift, etc that he shows are fairly unique in their focus.

When combining the Anonymous, Fiore (Vadi just shows a subset of his plays), and Monte, you have a poleaxe curriculum that teaches everything you need to know about the weapon, and is certainly just as full as the material we have from Kal, Talhoffer, and Falkner. Not better, just as complete.

Now, what *else* does Fiore have for his axe material? Well, first things first - buy Tom Leoni's excellent translation of Fiore so that you can see for yourself http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/fi...ia/7344691

OK, as has been stated, the armoured combat section is all one set of material, with each weapon's plays introducing unique emphases to that weapon.

So, first you begin with the axe poste, or guards. This section tells you what blows each weapon makes, how to step while doing so, and which guards oppose which guards. We are given tactical advice on how to avoid a blow, how to deflect one, and which targets to strike (including, yet again, Monte's advice to go after the hands). In essence, it tells you how to fight in what the Germans call the Zufechten.

Next, the spear section shows how to use a common play in the system - the exchange of thrusts - with a polearm. This is no different than a variation of an absetezen or Zornhau-Ort, just slightly different footwork. We are also taught the counter - displacing a thrust, with a rising strike of the queue.

Then there is the plays of the sword in armour, all of which can be done with the axe. Since the sword's hilt is the axe head and the point is the heel-spike (as Fiore has shown us earlier in the manuscript), we know which plays correspond to which parts of the axe. So, looking at these plays, here is what we have:

1. a displacement with the queue and thrust to the face with the heel spike
2. from the same, a collar throw with the queue
3. an elbow push, done with the hand or the queue, to turn the opponent.
4. an elbow lock from the same bind (in the axe section, shown from a low bind)
5. From the binding of weapons, a strike with the axe head to the face, and two follow-on actions, including the collar hook and throw from this side. (Think of it like two of the three wrestlings in German material - if the throw with the heel fails, you wind around in the bind and throw him from the other side.)
6. a feint and stop-thrust to the face with the heel-spike
7. a wrap-up and throw over your leg ("rear leg takedown")
8. Thrusting between the opponent's hands and winding over his right wrist, setting up several different options, including a wrist hook..

To which are added the aforementioned axe-plays, which include:

1. a throw, made using a face press, and the axe haft slipped between the opponent's legs to lever him over.
2. a counter-hook to pull the opponent's axe to the ground, followed by stepping on the weapon as you attack.
3. the axe variations of the elbow lock and the visor lift -as necessarily adapted from a low bind and a heavier weapon.
4. a two-handed disarm of the opponent's axe, followed by striking him with the same.
5. an unarmed counter to the same, or follow-up action, throwing the opponent to the ground, if he reaches for your knee to unbalance you.

That's a fair bit of axe material - certainly as much as in Kal, Faulkner or most of the Talhoffers. You have general advice on guards, attacks, parries and feints, 15 plays and counters, several with variations, that use both ends of the weapon, play into and from the bind, deal with what to do if the axe goes to the ground, and give a scenario or two for what to do if he disarms *you*.

The only core technique that I don't see a direct reference to in Fiore is using the beak to hook the knee. But it is mentioned against the neck in half-swording (with the cross), and it done as an unarmed grab in the poleaxe material, as well as done with leverage with the haft, so it is not a big extrapolation.

Finally, I should point out that it is not extrapolation by Fioreists to apply the sword and spear plays to the axe - Fiore tells us to do so.

In any case, certainly between Fiore, Monte and the Anonymous there is more than enough material for a complete axe curriculum - certainly as large as is found in German sources.

As to Le Jeu, well it is not my research, so I can't say too much on it, but I should point out that are best evidence suggests that the author was Milanese....

Ciao!

Greg

[Greg Mele]