Posts: 237 Location: Arlington, VA
Sat 21 Mar, 2009 4:43 am
| Werner Stiegler wrote: |
| ...that standing and moving in formation comes natural to people who would've spent most of their life herding and watching herd animals. |
Perhaps, but not with a pike or halberd in your hands. I don't know what the author's agenda was, but a pike square formed of people who have never practiced with them is going to be more of a hazard to itself than to the enemy.
Steve
Posts: 82
Sat 21 Mar, 2009 8:55 am
Thanks everybody, this is very good information.
So it sounds like ordinary soldiers were trained some basic attacks and defenses and were left to learn through experience on the battlefield. I'm guessing that the knights and nobility that fought in war would have been much better prepared for battle beforehand? Were they the select audience that used manuals?
Posts: 551 Location: flagstaff,arizona
Sat 21 Mar, 2009 11:27 am
| Alain D. wrote: |
Thanks everybody, this is very good information.
So it sounds like ordinary soldiers were trained some basic attacks and defenses and were left to learn through experience on the battlefield. I'm guessing that the knights and nobility that fought in war would have been much better prepared for battle beforehand? Were they the select audience that used manuals? |
I think generalizations like this are only useful if they are applied selectively, based on study of a particular area and period, otherwise they are counter-productive to a real understanding of history.
For instance, cultures and/or communities which existed on or near a disputed border may be markedly different in these respects than those in more civilized, less accessible, or less strategically important areas, without regard to national, cultural, or political boundaries.
Posts: 385 Location: Melbourne, Australia
Sun 22 Mar, 2009 12:50 am
| Douglas S wrote: |
| One thing I'd like to add. We know something of techniques, but the training regime per se is not well described in most cases. But we have Vegetius' description of the training of Roman legionaries before the 4th century. In the 14th century Poem of the Pell describes identical training techniques (solitary training with a pell, and a double-weight shield and sword). It's obvious that either this Roman treatise was read and taken seriously throughout the Dark Ages and early Middle Ages, or it was maintained as an oral tradition through these times. |
That isn't necissarily true. The similarity could spring from two different groups hitting upon something that worked. Hip throws, executed in a quie similar fashion seem to exist in the fighting manuals, and in Judo, but there is no indication that there was an interchange of ideas between the two systems. Both include that technique because it is an efective way of a human body to throw another human body to the ground, an people attempting to systematize throwing to the ground will likely hit upon it.
Posts: 1,532 Location: Tennessee
Sun 22 Mar, 2009 4:48 am
Actually the preface of the 15th century translation (Christine Pashan) of Vegtius's work says that it was carried down as a tradition. Part of the courtly, knightly past times were in fact to discuss readings and applicability of tactics in his work.
Posts: 385 Location: Melbourne, Australia
Sun 22 Mar, 2009 5:06 am
Ah, fair enough. I wasn't arguing that there was no conection, only that extreem similarity is not always because of a conection.
Btw, what sort of sword would you guys use to split a hair 4 ways? ;)
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