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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 12 Mar, 2009 6:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Man, Carlo, I wish I had the books available that I once did. There was a wealth of info in here! My ex got the fashion- and portrait-related books when we broke up a decade ago. Sad
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Leopoldo L





Joined: 30 May 2007

Posts: 2

PostPosted: Thu 12 Mar, 2009 9:23 pm    Post subject: Re: 16th century soft school of fence kit design         Reply with quote

Carlo Arellano wrote:
Here is a rough drawing of a kit I'm having made that I can wear to Faire and also have a padded doublet to fence with. What do you guys think? I'm going for late period longsword practitioner. The Hauptmann from Albion will probably be the sword for this kit.


Some information (mostly leather related):

My soft & hard kit:
http://gallery.me.com/technoking/100015
Lots of unrelated undocumented elements. But, some document-able too. I’ve fenced (WMA/HES/SCA) often in the gear for over eight years as “soft” kit and about two-three years with points for “hard” elements (IMHO don't point torso armour). Yokes and gussets (non-armour ref here) are important.

Altered the garment recently in trying to “update” to more period sources.
Such as Giovanni Battista Moroni’s Portrait of a Gentleman/Il Cavaliere dal
Piede Ferito (Knight of the Wounded Foot)
See it referenced as A Knight with his Jousting Helmet, featured in the National Gallery's Who, what and why?:
http://tinyurl.com/5d9357
The museum posts their take on their painting's Weapons and Armour:
http://tinyurl.com/5jg8dd
As always, debatable what the jack/doublet/coat is made of. It’s a painting. Note the maille voiders.

And see, Janet Arnold’s documentation in Patterns of Fashion:
Soft leather suede doublet, Stibbert Museum, Florence, Page 72
Youth’s doublet, Nederlands Kostuummuseum, The Hague, Page 72
Youth’s cream colored sued leather doublet, Germanisches Nationalmuseum, Murnberg, Page 82
Youth’s cream colored sued leather doublet, Royal Scottish Museum, Edinburgh, Page 82

Other www sites of interest with historical cloth and leather armour recreations:
http://www.deborahloughcostumes.com/paddedarmour/greyad.html
http://www.deborahloughcostumes.com/paddedarmour/gallery.html
&
http://www.revivalclothing.com/

Museum of Leathercraft’s 16th Century Leather doublet
http://www.museumofleathercraft.org/
and at the wonderful Czech resource:
http://www.kostym.cz/Anglicky/I_02_05.htm
and
http://www.kostym.cz/Anglicky/1_Originaly/02_..._02_46.htm

Czech www site
Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York)
http://www.kostym.cz/Anglicky/1_Originaly/02_..._02_21.htm
V+A Museum, London
http://www.kostym.cz/Anglicky/1_Originaly/02_..._02_47.htm

There are leather arming doublet/buff coat/fencing doublet discussions worth having. Not going into them now. Just suggesting some sources. Also, valid to consider the term leather/sued has a whole range of subcategories (tanning process/animal) and temporal meanings. Whatever you create and whatever the source (or lack thereof) and whatever the material, I wish you lots of fun.



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Pas.jpg
Very Fluffy Photo.
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Carlo Arellano





Joined: 21 Oct 2007

Posts: 52

PostPosted: Sun 29 Mar, 2009 6:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote



After all the help, here is an update on the design of my kit. Although not strictly following any extant examples or examples in portraits of the last 25 years of the 16th century I decided to create a piece inspired by the examples I have found.

Thank you everyone for the input, especially on the materials used.
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Steven H




Location: Boston
Joined: 10 May 2006

Posts: 545

PostPosted: Sun 29 Mar, 2009 7:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice. The new design looks very good. I like the color change as well.

Cheers,
Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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William Carew




Location: Australia
Joined: 23 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Sun 29 Mar, 2009 7:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's excellent Carlo. Beautiful art and I love the kit (actually, that would be my ideal training 'uniform' for Meyer work if I could find someone to make cost effective versions of it). Big Grin
Bill Carew
Jogo do Pau Brisbane
COLLEGIUM IN ARMIS
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Jessica Finley
Industry Professional



Location: Topeka, Kansas
Joined: 29 Dec 2003

Posts: 110

PostPosted: Sun 29 Mar, 2009 7:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Carlo - That looks *great*! You'll enjoy wearing it.

I look forward to seeing the completed project.

Jessica

Selohaar Fechtschule, Free Scholar
http://www.selohaar.org/fechtschule

Fühlen Designs, Owner/Designer/Seamstress
http://fuhlendesigns.com
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 2,689

PostPosted: Sun 05 Apr, 2009 1:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Carlo Arellano wrote:

I do remember Hans Holbein the younger having longswords in his paintings which leads me to other sources to examine for my kit.



Hmm...is this a genuine Holbein, or a 19th-century retouch of a Holbein? The content and the style of the main image looks correct, but the borders are bothering me a bit....
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Al Muckart




Location: NZ
Joined: 27 Dec 2005

Posts: 309

PostPosted: Sun 05 Apr, 2009 3:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Carlo,

Carlo Arellano wrote:

After all the help, here is an update on the design of my kit. Although not strictly following any extant examples or examples in portraits of the last 25 years of the 16th century I decided to create a piece inspired by the examples I have found.

Thank you everyone for the input, especially on the materials used.


Man, I wish I could draw like that Happy That looks great.

I can't really comment intelligently on the clothing, but when it comes to the shoes, I'd square the toes off a lot more .They look somewhat pointed in the picture, and the toes on shoes of that period would be very blunt. Perhaps not the really squared off toes of earlier in the century, but certainly not at all pointed.

I'll try and remember to dig into Stepping Through Time later this week and see if I can find anything specifically dated to that time.

--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
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D. Rosen





Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 108

PostPosted: Sun 05 Apr, 2009 11:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It looks great Carlo!

If you'd like though, there are a few more tweaks that will make it all the more historically accurate.

The vast majority of men's doublets during the Elizabethan era had fully attached, set-in sleeves. We only see examples of detachable sleeves in a few places; the child's jerkin in Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion, one or two paintings of Dutch lower-class laborers (one is a butcher...cross referencing other contemporary images suggest that they would've worn some sort of coat over their jerkins......I'll see if I can find them), and one or two from Caravaggio (but am led to question the validity of his paintings as a source for clothing as he frequently skewed that of his sitters to make it look, in his eye, more in line with the Roman or Biblical eras). That said, evidence suggests that detachable/tie-in sleeves were the exception to the rule.

Despite that, as I've said before, your outfit need not be super accurate, and having detachable sleeves can certainly be more comfortable. I would advise you to make the method of attachment (eyelets, ties, etc.) be as inconspicuous as possible so it still appears as though it is sewn-in on the outside.


As for the shoes, I would simply round off the toe a little bit so they're more of a very rounded almond shape. Square toes were popular a little before and soon after the era you're representing, and severely or sharply pointed toes were popular during the 15th century. If your shoes are going to have any sort of heel, keep it low....heels were just beginning to develop.

Just out of curiosity, what sort of buttons will you be using?

I'm pretty sure that early 16th century drawing is an original, but I'll look into it.
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