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Jean-Carle Hudon




Location: Montreal,Canada
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PostPosted: Fri 27 Feb, 2009 5:58 pm    Post subject: LeMat         Reply with quote

I am fascinated by the design of the LeMat, which had the common sense of offering a scattergun, or shotgun, option to its user, which seems to make a lot of sense when you are bouncing up and down on horseback and shooting at someone who is also moving about... but I remember reading, maybe in a novel, that federal cavalry would hang southern cavalrymen who used ''shotguns''. Is this legend, fabrication, civil war angst and propaganda? Does anyone out there have any firm references on the subject?
Bon coeur et bon bras
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Nathan M Wuorio




Location: Maine.
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PostPosted: Sat 28 Feb, 2009 1:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I found that excerpt from the ordinance regulations quite interesting. I had no idea swords underwent that kind of testing back then, so thank you very much! I have several reproduction Civil War blades with steel scabbards and I'm now curious to try some of that testing, but I'm also hesitant because I don't want to cause my blades any damage.
Nathan.
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Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
Joined: 27 Nov 2007

Posts: 625

PostPosted: Sat 28 Feb, 2009 8:34 pm    Post subject: Re: LeMat         Reply with quote

Jean-Carle Hudon wrote:
I am fascinated by the design of the LeMat, which had the common sense of offering a scattergun, or shotgun, option to its user, which seems to make a lot of sense when you are bouncing up and down on horseback and shooting at someone who is also moving about... but I remember reading, maybe in a novel, that federal cavalry would hang southern cavalrymen who used ''shotguns''. Is this legend, fabrication, civil war angst and propaganda? Does anyone out there have any firm references on the subject?


I've never heard about the hanging of southern cavalrymen with shotguns. It may have happened in one or two instances but it wasn't common practice.

As for the LeMat, yes I've also always found it an interesting design. However, in use I think the fact that it had a 9 shot cylinder is more important than the shotgun barrel. The accounts I've read all state that the shotgun barrel ignition was pretty unreliable and underpowered to boot. Using modern percussion caps the shotgun barrel is even harder to ignite (modern caps are less sensitive). In general LeMats suffered from issues stemming from the quality of its manufacture (generally not high).

'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Sat 28 Feb, 2009 8:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I ran across an interesting article about Civil War handguns - http://civilwarhandgun.com/ - It has lots of photos of Colts, Remingtons, LeMats, and many others.
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Sun 01 Mar, 2009 4:34 am    Post subject: Re: The use of swords for combat during the American Civil W         Reply with quote

Nathan M Wuorio wrote:
I would also like to know how often a bayonet charge took place, I know painters enjoy using it for an interesting picture, but that does not necessarily reflect how often it was done. I do love those paintings though!


Studies of Napoleonic warfare tend to show that bayonet charges were commonplace, but bayonet fights were rare; in most cases the unit targeted by the bayonet charge broke and ran, or the charging unit got unnerved by the defenders' resolve and backed off (often with the countercharging defenders in hot pursuit). I'm feeling a bit lazy so the only source I can give at the moment is a tertiary one (and an online one, at that):

http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/infantry_tactics_2.htm

but I have no doubts that you'd have an easy time finding appropriate secondary and primary references once you have the right keywords.
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Andre Ducote




Location: Mississippi, USA
Joined: 12 Jan 2007

Posts: 14

PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2009 8:21 am    Post subject: Re: LeMat         Reply with quote

Ian Hutchison wrote:
Jean-Carle Hudon wrote:
I am fascinated by the design of the LeMat, which had the common sense of offering a scattergun, or shotgun, option to its user, which seems to make a lot of sense when you are bouncing up and down on horseback and shooting at someone who is also moving about... but I remember reading, maybe in a novel, that federal cavalry would hang southern cavalrymen who used ''shotguns''. Is this legend, fabrication, civil war angst and propaganda? Does anyone out there have any firm references on the subject?


I've never heard about the hanging of southern cavalrymen with shotguns. It may have happened in one or two instances but it wasn't common practice.

As for the LeMat, yes I've also always found it an interesting design. However, in use I think the fact that it had a 9 shot cylinder is more important than the shotgun barrel. The accounts I've read all state that the shotgun barrel ignition was pretty unreliable and underpowered to boot. Using modern percussion caps the shotgun barrel is even harder to ignite (modern caps are less sensitive). In general LeMats suffered from issues stemming from the quality of its manufacture (generally not high).




I don't recall reading anyting about hanging southern cavalryman for the weapons that they used. Maybe it did happen. If so, I don't think that there was any general order issued to that effect.

I'm sure that the 9 shots were more important. I have a feeling that many southern officer's liked the Lemat for its novelty. They sure are expensive these days, though.

Andre
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Andre Ducote




Location: Mississippi, USA
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2009 8:33 am    Post subject: Re: The use of swords for combat during the American Civil W         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Nathan M Wuorio wrote:
I would also like to know how often a bayonet charge took place, I know painters enjoy using it for an interesting picture, but that does not necessarily reflect how often it was done. I do love those paintings though!


Studies of Napoleonic warfare tend to show that bayonet charges were commonplace, but bayonet fights were rare; in most cases the unit targeted by the bayonet charge broke and ran, or the charging unit got unnerved by the defenders' resolve and backed off (often with the countercharging defenders in hot pursuit). I'm feeling a bit lazy so the only source I can give at the moment is a tertiary one (and an online one, at that):

http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/infantry_tactics_2.htm

but I have no doubts that you'd have an easy time finding appropriate secondary and primary references once you have the right keywords.



I could see that as being true, but I think that they chances that wounds were inflicted by bayonet in the Napoleonic Wars and before is much, much greater than in the US Civil War. I believe that the armies of the 18th and early 19th century were much better trained to use the bayonet than those of the US Civil War.

Andre


Andre
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Jean-Carle Hudon




Location: Montreal,Canada
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2009 11:27 am    Post subject: leMat         Reply with quote

I agree that the nine shots were certainly a selling point, and now I am rumaging through my Civil War library to try and find where the blazes I read about the retribution for using shotguns....
Anyway, to get back on point with regards to the use of sabers, I did come upon a comment by General Early in the last years, the Shenandoah campaign, where he complains that his cavalry was bested by federal cavalry because they had become to reliant on their rifles and were no longer equipped with sabres. He is quoted as writing:
''Lomax's cavalry is armed entirely with rifles and has no sabers, and the consequence is they cannot fight on horseback, and in this open country they cannot successfully fight on foot against large bodies of cavalry.''

Back to Le Mat, his partner was the famous general Beauregard. Maybe that helped with the attraction held for the product by southern gentlemen. As for their high cost today, three factors: there weren't that many to begin with. The best models out of England's BSA ( British Small Arms) only amounted to some 3000, and even they were afflicted by design flaws inherent to some pieces which were too slight for the demands made upon them, so many broke down prematurely, and there was no way of getting a proper supply of replacement pieces, so they fast became obsolete So the few became fewer, and the last factor has to do with anything southern in the Civil war market: all things southern come at a premium, so this enhances the value of whatever is still out there in good shape manyfold.
Does anyone know of the italian repros that are out there?

Bon coeur et bon bras
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Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
Joined: 27 Nov 2007

Posts: 625

PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2009 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: leMat         Reply with quote

Jean-Carle Hudon wrote:
I agree that the nine shots were certainly a selling point, and now I am rumaging through my Civil War library to try and find where the blazes I read about the retribution for using shotguns....
Anyway, to get back on point with regards to the use of sabers, I did come upon a comment by General Early in the last years, the Shenandoah campaign, where he complains that his cavalry was bested by federal cavalry because they had become to reliant on their rifles and were no longer equipped with sabres. He is quoted as writing:
''Lomax's cavalry is armed entirely with rifles and has no sabers, and the consequence is they cannot fight on horseback, and in this open country they cannot successfully fight on foot against large bodies of cavalry.''

Back to Le Mat, his partner was the famous general Beauregard. Maybe that helped with the attraction held for the product by southern gentlemen. As for their high cost today, three factors: there weren't that many to begin with. The best models out of England's BSA ( British Small Arms) only amounted to some 3000, and even they were afflicted by design flaws inherent to some pieces which were too slight for the demands made upon them, so many broke down prematurely, and there was no way of getting a proper supply of replacement pieces, so they fast became obsolete So the few became fewer, and the last factor has to do with anything southern in the Civil war market: all things southern come at a premium, so this enhances the value of whatever is still out there in good shape manyfold.
Does anyone know of the italian repros that are out there?


Yes, Fili Pietta of Italy makes a LeMat revolver replica in .44 for about $800-900. In many ways the actual construction and materials are an improvement on the originals. Fit and finish range from decent to very good. Depending on the gun it may or may not need timing/cylinder alignment adjustment. It inherits the unreliable shotgun ignition of the original and this is compounded by more stable modern caps. For some reason, perhaps because of the higher price, the internal components seem to be of better make than in Pietta's other models.

'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Ted Parolari




Location: Tennessee
Joined: 22 Jan 2008

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2009 6:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's my understanding that a lot of Southern Calvarymen carried shotguns because carbines were in such short supply. Many times it was the weapon that they brought from home and the only weapon they had to begin with. I think it was expected that they pick up or "liberate" weapons on the battlefield. And while Forrest's men were considered calvary, he fought them more as mounted infantry. He armed them with both pistols and Enfield rifles.

Many times especially in at the beginning of the war the commanding officers of the different regiments supplied weapons to their men. Nathan Bedford Forrest supplied Colt's Navy pistols to his troopers at his on expense. Of course, he recouped that expense as he began to raid federal depots and supply convoys.

In regards to the sword, while not a favored wepaon of his, Nathan Bedford did seriously wound one of his officers with a sabre. He had a fearsome temper and the man provoked him, so Bedford sabred him.
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Andre Ducote




Location: Mississippi, USA
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PostPosted: Tue 03 Mar, 2009 7:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ted Parolari wrote:
It's my understanding that a lot of Southern Calvarymen carried shotguns because carbines were in such short supply. Many times it was the weapon that they brought from home and the only weapon they had to begin with. I think it was expected that they pick up or "liberate" weapons on the battlefield. And while Forrest's men were considered calvary, he fought them more as mounted infantry. He armed them with both pistols and Enfield rifles.

Many times especially in at the beginning of the war the commanding officers of the different regiments supplied weapons to their men. Nathan Bedford Forrest supplied Colt's Navy pistols to his troopers at his on expense. Of course, he recouped that expense as he began to raid federal depots and supply convoys.

In regards to the sword, while not a favored wepaon of his, Nathan Bedford did seriously wound one of his officers with a sabre. He had a fearsome temper and the man provoked him, so Bedford sabred him.



I think that what you say of Forrest's command is typically true of Southern cavalry in the Western theatre. More of mounted infantry than of traditional cavalry. However, they did perform the traditional roles of scouting, patrolling and harassment fo the enemy.

As to the shotguns, I think at the start of the war many CS regiments were poorly armed. The 9th Arkansas went into combat at Shiloh armed with flintlocks and shotguns. The primary weapon of Pemberton's army at Vicksburg was the smoothbore flintlock musket which had been converted to percussion.
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
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PostPosted: Tue 03 Mar, 2009 7:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ted Parolari wrote:
It's my understanding that a lot of Southern Calvarymen carried shotguns because carbines were in such short supply. Many times it was the weapon that they brought from home and the only weapon they had to begin with. I think it was expected that they pick up or "liberate" weapons on the battlefield. And while Forrest's men were considered calvary, he fought them more as mounted infantry. He armed them with both pistols and Enfield rifles.

Many times especially in at the beginning of the war the commanding officers of the different regiments supplied weapons to their men. Nathan Bedford Forrest supplied Colt's Navy pistols to his troopers at his on expense. Of course, he recouped that expense as he began to raid federal depots and supply convoys.

In regards to the sword, while not a favored wepaon of his, Nathan Bedford did seriously wound one of his officers with a sabre. He had a fearsome temper and the man provoked him, so Bedford sabred him.


I am probably one of the most erstwhile ACW scholars aside from my ancestors perspective but I have noted some information about Forrest's sword. This in that sword spending most of the war by his side and the example a cavalry officer sword of 1840 genre. The sword was captured in one of his actions and was originally sold to the previous owner by Horstmann, of Philadelphia. This somewhat diminutive version has a 31" blade and Nathan is said to have killed seven souls with this. I'm abstracting from bits of online notes garnered on the net yesterday. The sword remains superbly intact.
http://www.cwrtdallas.org/CWRT/misc.%20pages/...word.shtml

A good many also mention have making use of the big straight swords of continental favor. the French modeling of cavalry type sabres were based on American swords and although apparently thought somewhat useless, the 1822 sabres lasted through the 19th century and beyond. Although also favored by many that adopted it as the "Heavy" "wristbreaker", there were lots of other swords sent forth for the conflict.

As I had this shot out for something else recently, it is a shot of the French 1854 dragon sword, alongside a reproduction Patton sword and a brace of spadroons. The spadroons all range in the same blade length that is mentioned of Forrest's Horstmann (probably Weyersburg or Kirschbaum).The American nco 1840 is on the bottom and has a suitably large knuckle guard for someone with a glove. Anyway, some late (sic) straight swords of war use. The 1854 dragon and others did last right into the 20th century.

Cheers

GC
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Andre Ducote




Location: Mississippi, USA
Joined: 12 Jan 2007

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PostPosted: Tue 03 Mar, 2009 8:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen A Cleeton wrote:
[quote="A good many also mention have making use of the big straight swords of continental favor. the French modeling of cavalry type sabres were based on American swords and although apparently thought somewhat useless, the 1822 sabres lasted through the 19th century and beyond. Although also favored by many that adopted it as the "Heavy" "wristbreaker", there were lots of other swords sent forth for the conflict.

Cheers

GC



Glen,

When you say that a good many mention having made use of the straight swords of continental favor, are you referring to use in the American Civil War?

Andre
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Tue 03 Mar, 2009 8:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen A Cleeton wrote:
the French modeling of cavalry type sabres were based on American swords and although apparently thought somewhat useless, the 1822 sabres lasted through the 19th century and beyond. Although also favored by many that adopted it as the "Heavy" "wristbreaker", there were lots of other swords sent forth for the conflict.


Did you mean to write "American modeling of cavalry type sabres were based on French swords..."? Happy

Jonathan
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
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PostPosted: Tue 03 Mar, 2009 8:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Andre Ducote wrote:
Glen A Cleeton wrote:
[quote="A good many also mention have making use of the big straight swords of continental favor. the French modeling of cavalry type sabres were based on American swords and although apparently thought somewhat useless, the 1822 sabres lasted through the 19th century and beyond. Although also favored by many that adopted it as the "Heavy" "wristbreaker", there were lots of other swords sent forth for the conflict.

Cheers

GC



Glen,

When you say that a good many mention having made use of the straight swords of continental favor, are you referring to use in the American Civil War?

Andre


Well, a few anyway. We've gone around the block a few times with those references to Siegel and "whats his name" ?8^) Two is a good many? No? Heros Von Borcke, ja, that's the ticket. Another dealer at the Hartford show was claiming one to Forrest as well but I went with one without a story. Big straight swords that favored some, anyway.

Cheers

GC
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
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PostPosted: Tue 03 Mar, 2009 8:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathan Hopkins wrote:
Glen A Cleeton wrote:
the French modeling of cavalry type sabres were based on American swords and although apparently thought somewhat useless, the 1822 sabres lasted through the 19th century and beyond. Although also favored by many that adopted it as the "Heavy" "wristbreaker", there were lots of other swords sent forth for the conflict.


Did you mean to write "American modeling of cavalry type sabres were based on French swords..."? Happy

Jonathan


That didn't come out right but you knew what I meant. The French modeled them first and were adopted in American fashions. Obviously the 1822 trooper and officer sabres were around before the U.S. fancies.

Cheers

GC

sure, pick on the brain dead guy
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Andre Ducote




Location: Mississippi, USA
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Posts: 14

PostPosted: Tue 03 Mar, 2009 9:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen A Cleeton wrote:
Andre Ducote wrote:
Glen A Cleeton wrote:
[quote="A good many also mention have making use of the big straight swords of continental favor. the French modeling of cavalry type sabres were based on American swords and although apparently thought somewhat useless, the 1822 sabres lasted through the 19th century and beyond. Although also favored by many that adopted it as the "Heavy" "wristbreaker", there were lots of other swords sent forth for the conflict.

Cheers

GC



Glen,

When you say that a good many mention having made use of the straight swords of continental favor, are you referring to use in the American Civil War?

Andre



Well, a few anyway. We've gone around the block a few times with those references to Siegel and "whats his name" ?8^) Two is a good many? No? Heros Von Borcke, ja, that's the ticket. Another dealer at the Hartford show was claiming one to Forrest as well but I went with one without a story. Big straight swords that favored some, anyway.

Cheers

GC



Nothing that was pattern adopted, anyway. Maybe a few officers. Von Borke did, but he really was a European cavalryman. Wade Hampton carried a sword simliar to the French 1854 dragoon. Some of the CS sabres are not very curved, but I can't think of a CS manufacturer that intentionally copied a sword like the French 1854 dragoon. Some, like Haiman, had some pretty ornate hilts, like a pallasch, but the blades were much shorter.
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Tue 03 Mar, 2009 9:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just a follow-up on von Borcke, from the Time-Life book Arms and Equipment of the Confederacy:







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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
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PostPosted: Tue 03 Mar, 2009 9:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah yes, it was Wade Hampton the dealer was going on about. Siegel is shown with a long straight one, One of the other Von Borcke threads at SFI had someone else mentioning specifics in IDing the swords. I guess he had more than one over time.

Cheers

GC



 Attachment: 30.87 KB
Franz_Sigel.jpg
Franz Siegel (shows up with this sword in a couple of pictures)
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