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Oleg Naumov




Location: Saint Petersburg
Joined: 02 Feb 2009

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Sun 01 Mar, 2009 11:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gentlemen,
Your discussion is very interesting, thanks a lot. I haven’t arrived at final decision regarding to purpose and real usage of lantern shields yet. I think it was unconventional equipment for unconventional warfare. Let us say, the Medieval Special Forces used the lantern shields. It could be very useful for assassinations, night raids especially when you need to light up the enemy’s siege machines or powder kegs and etc.
Here I attached two more pictures with Russian Lantern shields. Russian chronics say that those shields used during the defense of cities and castles. There are a lot of pictures of these shields but I’ve never seen the real one.



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tarch.jpg
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bakhterets-and-tarch_.jpg

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Viktor Chudinov




Location: Varna, Bulgaria
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2009 12:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Those sure do look strange. Are they some kind of interpretation drawings?
I wonder...do deaf schizophrenics hear voices...
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2009 1:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oleg Naumov wrote:
I think it was unconventional equipment for unconventional warfare. Let us say, the Medieval Special Forces used the lantern shields. It could be very useful for assassinations, night raids especially when you need to light up the enemy’s siege machines or powder kegs and etc.


There are some important problems for such a theory; first, the lantern shields don't really appear in the artifactual and iconographical record until the Renaissance, so they probably didn't exist in the Middle Ages as anything more than single, isolated, widely-separated instances; and even in the Renaissance, the surviving military manuals mention many expedients for use in night raids (especially the wearing of bright-colored items of clothing or accessories) but I haven't read a single one that mentions the use of lantern shield. The only evidence I'm aware of about their use is in the context civilian assassinations rather than military ones, such as the attempt on Sir Kenelm Digby's friend.

And of course, blowing up powder stores or burning siege machines would be a task much better suited to plain ordinary torches than lantern shields. Lanterns were built not to expose the flames to lateral influence from winds, while this exposure would have been necessary to set the enemy's materiel on fire.
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Oleg Naumov




Location: Saint Petersburg
Joined: 02 Feb 2009

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2009 1:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Viktor Chudinov wrote
Quote:
Those sure do look strange. Are they some kind of interpretation drawings?


Actually, they are.

Lafayette C Curtis wrote
Quote:
There are some important problems for such a theory; first, the lantern shields don't really appear in the artifactual and iconographical record until the Renaissance, so they probably didn't exist in the Middle Ages as anything more than single, isolated, widely-separated instances; and even in the Renaissance, the surviving military manuals mention many expedients for use in night raids (especially the wearing of bright-colored items of clothing or accessories) but I haven't read a single one that mentions the use of lantern shield. The only evidence I'm aware of about their use is in the context civilian assassinations rather than military ones, such as the attempt on Sir Kenelm Digby's friend.


Maybe, maybe. Unfortunately you haven’t convinced me. There are a lot of things we will never know just because sources haven’t survived. A lot of manuals ant treatises were lost during the wars, fires and other disasters and natural cataclysms.
Torches are good and cheaper but they could compromise all operation, I mean the night raid, from the very beginning. On the other hand, there is hidden source of fire in the lantern shield.


Last edited by Oleg Naumov on Mon 02 Mar, 2009 3:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2009 2:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And how is the hidden source of fire supposed to touch off the enemy's materiel? Would the raiders toss their shields into the pile and then leave without their protection? Most likely they'd need some means of transfer, anyway--that is, a firebrand of torch--and it's more practical to just carry unlighted torches altogether and light them from the fires that one could almost be sure of finding in the enemy's camp.

Remember, too, that medieval and Renaissance lanterns weren't kerosene lamps. Their light came from candles--and not very large candles at that. Such candles would probably gutter out when taken out of the lantern, and even if not they might not really be large enough to light anything significant.

Last but not least, if you're not convinced by the "absence of evidence" argument, then I'm even less convinced by the "missing manuals" idea; considering that none of the surviving manuals that I know of (and there's a fair number of them) mention the lantern shield, what's the chance of any of the missing manuals having anything to say about its use?
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Oleg Naumov




Location: Saint Petersburg
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2009 3:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
And how is the hidden source of fire supposed to touch off the enemy's materiel? Would the raiders toss their shields into the pile and then leave without their protection? Most likely they'd need some means of transfer, anyway--that is, a firebrand of torch--and it's more practical to just carry unlighted torches altogether and light them from the fires that one could almost be sure of finding in the enemy's camp.


I said that the lantern shield could be the reliable source of fire not the device to toss into the pile. Own source of fire is more reliable than finding in the enemy's camp. We will never know for sure.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2009 7:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A source of light for a night raid ? Maybe, but a very weak one I would think ? But with an oil lamp and some sort of mirror reflector maybe not too bad ? Night watch patrol light also might be useful ?

The shield might help the holder preserve his night vision and ruin the night vision of an opponent at night or in a dark place.

We are today very much used to seeing portable light and the surprise effect today would be small unless the light was extremely bright but in period a sudden source of light might be a surprise and in a pitch black situation where the eyes are completely adapted to the dark a very weak source of light might still be a blinding.

As a weapon " gimmick " for a duel it seems like one of those bright ideas too far ahead of the technology to make it work.

Rich man's toy ??? Maybe not ? If enough of these where made then they must have been minimally useful !

Half joking but this sort of reminds me of a primitive form of " tactical " light like the one's used on today's firearms by Police or military tactical units.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Vrin Thomas





Joined: 16 Dec 2005

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PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2009 8:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oleg

It looks to me like those image are shield/gauntlet/blade combination weapons, but I am not sure they are true "lantern shields". It looks like the small cruciform shape at the top is a view portal and not a lantern. Both images have the figures looking through this opening (at least from a graphic standpoint).

It would be nice to hear more about them, maybe even about the sources these are from.
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Oleg Naumov




Location: Saint Petersburg
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2009 10:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vrin,

You are right; those are not the true lantern shields. As far as I know first picture is from the Mister Viskovatov’s “Description of uniform and armament of Russian State” published in XIX century. Second one is the postcard published in Soviet Union in 1980s. All sources tell that those shields were very rare and used during the sieges by defenders. Where did they take that information these source don’t tell us.
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Oleg Naumov




Location: Saint Petersburg
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Mar, 2009 11:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear Gents,
I’ve checked my Tower of London Royal Armory catalogue and found the information on second lantern shield from the Chad Arnow’s message he sent on February 25.
According to catalogue this shield (V.16), (inside) painted with scenes from life of Camillus; Italian, mid 16th century.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Mar, 2009 12:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oleg Naumov wrote:
Dear Gents,
I’ve checked my Tower of London Royal Armory catalogue and found the information on second lantern shield from the Chad Arnow’s message he sent on February 25.
According to catalogue this shield (V.16), (inside) painted with scenes from life of Camillus; Italian, mid 16th century.


There aren't 2 different shields pictured in that post. Just the front and back of the same one. Happy

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Oleg Naumov




Location: Saint Petersburg
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Mar, 2009 12:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
here aren't 2 different shields pictured in that post. Just the front and back of the same one. Happy

Maybe. There are two lantern shields in the catalogue. Your shield marked as V.16. Unfortunately, there is picture of internal side only. The lantern shield with catalogue number V. 17 designated as the shield of embossed leather, with opening for lantern; Italian, late 16 century. I’ll send the picture later on.
There is no upper lantern shield in the catalogue.
Wink
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Mar, 2009 12:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oleg Naumov wrote:

Maybe. There are two lantern shields in the catalogue. Your shield marked as V.16.


Not maybe. They are of the same shield. Happy The pics I posted came from the book Treasures from the Tower of London: An Exhibition of Arms and Armour. Both the color plate and black and white pic are of item 12 in the catalogue, the shield acquired in 1855 by the Tower Armouries. In the book you're referencing, it's plate CXLII. In Boccia's Armi Bianche Italiane, it's plates 434-35.

Happy

ChadA

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Oleg Naumov




Location: Saint Petersburg
Joined: 02 Feb 2009

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PostPosted: Wed 11 Mar, 2009 12:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote.
Quote:
Not maybe. They are of the same shield. The pics I posted came from the book Treasures from the Tower of London: An Exhibition of Arms and Armour. Both the color plate and black and white pic are of item 12 in the catalogue, the shield acquired in 1855 by the Tower Armouries. In the book you're referencing, it's plate CXLII. In Boccia's Armi Bianche Italiane, it's plates 434-35.


Thanks indeed. Now that’s obvious. Well, just for better understanding, I’ve attached the plate from “my book”. There is one more lantern shield I mentioned previously.


Gents,
Would somebody be so kind as to translate that Austrian (German) text?



 Attachment: 138.58 KB
The plate [ Download ]

 Attachment: 134.46 KB
The text on lantern shield [ Download ]
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Vince Matthews




Location: Nanaimo B.C. Canada
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PostPosted: Fri 27 Mar, 2009 8:44 pm    Post subject: translation?         Reply with quote

I've sent a messenger,help might be on the way for the translation...in the meantime, a smithy friend and myself are planning to re-create the Vienna displayed lantern shield ,or something similar (him doin' the smithy part me on armour), and have begun very prliminary design discussions.A call out to any and all about specs,funtions, layout anything would go far to help me build this, this,this..... thing.Educated guesses as well as fact are incouraged.
My personal feeling is this was a "bodygaurd" type weapon as eluded to in one of the previuos posts.It seems to me it is made to be used in confined or semi cinfined places such as backstreets and corridors ,perhaps even indoors? Imagine a noble out strolling at night and having a "bodygaurd" wearing one of these. Yes, I know it's just the opposite of the documented story but it seems this particular piece and other similarly elaborate pieces would have been out of reach of the average or even perhaps above average men.The seemingly wronged gentleman was referred to as a noble I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) and would be capable of arming his bodygaurds this way and use them to attack a rival.All this is of course MVHO.
By the way this smitthy friend said he's stopping by so could y'all tidy the place up a bit,and you...get yer feet off the table.
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Andy C. Nystrom





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PostPosted: Sat 28 Mar, 2009 7:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

When you and your smithy friend have a finished product I would very much like to know how the actual shield feels when worn. Is it gaudy and cumbersome as some believe or is it deceivingly functional and fairly easy to use? Also I'm curious on how bright the lantern light truly is when inserted into the shield. Also I would like to say thank you for pursuing a project like this. While I would very much like to do the same and recreate various items of interest the ability and connections are not available to me and I'm confined to my own theories and the well educated advice and opinions of the gentleman here at myArmoury.
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Oleg Naumov




Location: Saint Petersburg
Joined: 02 Feb 2009

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PostPosted: Mon 30 Mar, 2009 1:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is a picture taken by Fritz Goro in May 1944. We can see here one more lantern shield from the Worchester collection, MA, USA.


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Lantern shield from Worchester [ Download ]
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JE Sarge
Industry Professional



PostPosted: Mon 30 Mar, 2009 1:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In 'light' of this conversation, I thought I would chime in. Jean said something that has me thinking. Now, this is just speculation, so don't ask me for a historical reference. I will put forth a modern tactical point instead...

I've been in the military (active and reserve) and in law enforcement for 21 years now. I've trained and been part of countless night operations. I won't talk about blackout drive or night vision, but I will raise a point. A few years ago, Surefire introduced a model of tactical mounted pistol light for just this purpose. The main flashlight has a pair of low output colored LEDs called 'nav lights' mounted below the main bezel. These lights are to be used to negotiate terrain / obstacles during night operations in situations where a bright white light would ruin your night vision of give away your position. We do the same thing with small helmet red/blue LEDs in the Army. They only provide a few feet of illumination, but in total darkness when your eyes have adjusted, these small colored LEDs provide great lighting to move, see, and read by. And, best of all, they are attached to your weapon.

It's possible that the lantern shields could be used to dazzle an opponent, but I believe that this would be a secondary goal - as engaging an enemy would probably put out the light. Swing around a candle or small oil lamp in one of these, and I could almost promise that it would blow out immediately.

The primary goal seems like it would simply be a tactical device readily available to see in the dark - probably invented by town guards and adopted for other uses by civilian and criminal elements.

J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com

"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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Vince Matthews




Location: Nanaimo B.C. Canada
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PostPosted: Mon 30 Mar, 2009 9:45 am    Post subject: Time pic         Reply with quote

Nice pic Oleg,
Is there any commentary with that photo ??
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Oleg Naumov




Location: Saint Petersburg
Joined: 02 Feb 2009

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Tue 31 Mar, 2009 1:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vince,
Unfortunately there were no any comments with that photo. As far as I know that museum was situated in the Worchester pressed steel company building in 1944. The friend of mine confirmed that museum still exists.
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