Dear Alain,

On Monday 16 February 2009, you wrote:

Paul, that's interesting info about the bayonet charges vs. clubbing, but I'm curious what you mean by they were drilled to "use the point in preference". Does that mean that they would poke or jab the enemy with the barrel itself?

He means the opposite--that is, even when issued bayonets and instructed to fix them for combat, soldiers not specifically trained to do otherwise preferred to club their weapons. To prevent their doing that, they were drilled in thrusting with the bayonet, so that it replaced clubbing as their "natural" action in hand-to-hand combat. They would not have thrust with bare barrels. If lacking bayonets, they would indeed have clubbed their firearms, swinging them to strike with the butts at the risk of breaking them off, or perhaps would have thrust with the butts, which is less viscerally satisfying--a surprisingly important consideration--but which can be at least as effective as clubbing and is certainly less risky for the weapon.

I hope that this proves helpful.

Best,

Mark Millman

Hello All,

I tried to find a photo progression of a American Rifleman attempting to club a British soldier that two reenactors posted online at another forum in the last 2 years or less...

Haven't found them yet. If I do I'll post em.

This is what they showed.

The British high guard position of the time frame has the musket held shoulder height musket butt held in the right hand, forearm in the left hand. The musket with bayonet is close to 7 feet in length, an American longrifle can run between 4- 5 feet in length and when held in the mids end up being around a 3-4 foot club. The musket has a much, much longer reach.

Here was the problem with the photo progression, they had the rifleman attack the Soldier, not parry his musket aside first to close measure... One dead rifleman.

Cheers,

David

Sirs-many American units were Militia units using their own guns, meaning the so-called trade gun, which were smooth-bore 20 gage shotguns.A trade gun could be gotton from any trading post for 144 beaver pelts, which any settler with half a brain could get..Loaded with bird or buck shot they put food on the ttable loaded with 3 00 buckshot and a ball they put indians and redcoats on the ground. As any vet can tell you the Army and Marines still use shotguns for close-in fighting, like street-fighting snd clearing brush.This made them just the thing for ambushes, which is how most Revolutionary battles were won,and a settler couldn't afford a 15 or 20 pound rifles anyway,and probably never saw that much money in one place in his life, since he lived in an agricultural subsistance economy.

Alain:

Do not think anyone has given you these. Track yes. But these guys are some of the best in the US. Period. Just lurk for a bit, you will learn a ton of material. The Colonial Williamsburg folks are in here too, just to name a small portion. These two sites below are the myArmoury of the black powder world.

Thanks.



http://www.americanlongrifles.org/forum/ Mostly a builder's forum, but other items as well.

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/fusionbb.php Covers many areas from match lock to percussion.

I can't document this observation; it comes from a conversation with a friend who had a conversation with a long-time gunsmith/armorer for Colonial Williamsburg . . . so, FWIW, that fellow said that in 18th century North America most barrels were left bright, some were browned, and only a few blued. His observations were based on both written records and existing examples.

JSA

Here are some custom (US) gun makers whose products are in a whole other league compared to the Indian guns.

http://www.earlyrusticarms.com/ - this guy has great prices for US made semi-custom arms. In fact, the prices between these and the Italian/Indian made guns are so close that, combined with superior quality and authenticity, there is no reason to get a civilian style Italian/Indian gun over this.

Alain, check this guy out. His guns start out at $575 for a kit or $800-900 for a fully completed gun. The lines on his guns are more slender and graceful than on the Indian weapons (not to mention they are made out of the right kind of wood) and closer to the real deal. That's really my only concern about the Indian made guns, they are perfectly safe and the price is right but they don't quite look or feel right. The dimensions are normally a little large, they are a bit heavier, and the wood-to-metal fit isn't usually very good. They also use an Indian rose wood unknown to the US.

http://www.palongrifles.com/index.html - Very nice work. Fancier and more costly than the above link. This guy uses wood with great grain and can do very skillful carving.