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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Mon 16 Feb, 2009 5:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I mean no disrespect gentlemen, but this idea may be born out of thrift and impatience rather than sound reasoning.

A good scabbard will often cost as much as the sword it houses, sometimes more depending on the level of detail. I think it's unwise to spend a considerable sum on a scabbard then try to avoid the relatively trivial cost of shipping and the time elements involved by going this route. The frustration this will cause both the maker and the customer would be considerable. The only scabbards I've ever had made without the sword were only possible because the maker happened to have a copy of the sword in their possession. Many things simply have to follow a certain process to be done right, making a scabbard is one of those.
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Jim J




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PostPosted: Mon 16 Feb, 2009 6:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick;
Keep in mind that we are talking about a basic sheath here and not a scabbard, custom or otherwise. we are not speaking of impatience here, although impatience is certainly understandable when waiting for an anticipated project to be completed, but rather an unwillingness to ship off a treasured sword to have the work done, as has been stated in several posts.

Once again, we are talking about a loose fitting sheath to protect the blade when being carried or transported short distances rather than having no cover at all. this does not require custom fitting, just general measurements and does away with a wait of several weeks to several months while your treasured sword is at a scabbard maker, caught in a backlog.

for those who desire a custom fitted period piece scabbard, the options are always there if you don't mind shipping off your sword and waiting for the project to be completed.

personally, I don't see why a basic sheath isn't provided by so called "high end" sword manufacturers along with the sword. the so called "low end" swords provide a fairly decent scabbard with their swords as do the manufacturers of Japanese style swords both high cost and low cost. to me a scabbard is part of the sword just as the hilt is part of the sword........but that is a matter for a different discussion.

I firmly believe there is a market for a non-custom basic sheath for swords that come without them. Sooner or later someone is going to fill that need and make some money doing so. I only wish I had the skills.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 16 Feb, 2009 6:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick,
I totally understand your point, but you are also kind of reinforcing the first idea of this thread Happy :

Patrick Kelly wrote:
The only scabbards I've ever had made without the sword were only possible because the maker happened to have a copy of the sword in their possession.


Was the fit on those scabbards as good as if they had been made for your particular example of a model? Did they require any adjustment to fit your own sword?

It seems to be possible to have a good scabbard made off a copy of another sword of the same model, at least in some cases.

Happy

ChadA

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Last edited by Chad Arnow on Mon 16 Feb, 2009 6:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon 16 Feb, 2009 6:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jim J wrote:

I firmly believe there is a market for a non-custom basic sheath for swords that come without them. Sooner or later someone is going to fill that need and make some money doing so. I only wish I had the skills.


Dorsett House makes leather transport sheaths (at least they used to) . I have one now and have owned several previously. You send them a tracing of the blade and blade/guard junction and they send you back a scabbard with a reinforced throat and tip . It's not historically accurate and can be a little loose on the sword/dagger but it protects the blade and those around it. They can be strapped to a belt for Ren Faire wear. They were always far less than $100.

There may be a transport sheath market. People could mail tracings in and Brian could archive the tracings for people down the road. Just a thought.

Happy

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Jim J




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PostPosted: Mon 16 Feb, 2009 6:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan;
where do I begin??
I believe it has been mentioned several times already that we are not talking about a custom fitted scabbard. Obviously, to me anyway, that would require the sword in order to ensure a proper fit.

What we are discussing here is a LOOSE FITTING BASIC SHEATH to cover the blade when it is not on display. I have seen such a sheath offered (I won't mention the maker as I don't have his permission) for $95. the difference being that the sword is required for a custom fit. there is no wood core. the inner layer is oak tanned leather(non-corrosive) and the outer layers are of chrome tanned leather. I don't see why one of these couldn't be made to the general dimensions of a given sword to fit LOOSELY, not Perfectly, for a basic cover. that is the point i'm trying to make.

also, as we're on the subject, there are a lot of us out here who must save our pennies just in order to afford the more expensive sword. a $400-$? scabbard is beyond the reach of many of us on top of the sword. Sorry if that offends the higher income collectors out there, but that's the truth of it. we also collect, who do not make a fortune.

Nathan Robinson wrote:
For those wanting a "swordless scabbard" made:

I'm curious what you guys would pay for such an item. What is your budget?

I'd imagine that the same work will need to go into such a scabbard (as far as the maker is concerned) as one with the sword "in hand". So that means that the cost may be $300-$500, or even more depending on the details.

Is this something you guys would spend? Does it affect your decision to know that the scabbard might not have the best fit to your particular sword?

If the scabbard arrives and does not fit, how is that to be remedied? Who flips the bill for the shipping costs associated with the original shipping, the shipping back to the maker, and the re-shipping to the customer? Would the maker need to have the sword "in hand" on the second time around to fit the scabbard to it? Who flips the bill for the work required to take apart and re-engineer the already-completed piece?

Does this risk affect your decision to purchase such a product?
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Jim J




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PostPosted: Mon 16 Feb, 2009 6:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Jim J wrote:

I firmly believe there is a market for a non-custom basic sheath for swords that come without them. Sooner or later someone is going to fill that need and make some money doing so. I only wish I had the skills.


Dorsett House makes leather transport sheaths (at least they used to) . I have one now and have owned several previously. You send them a tracing of the blade and blade/guard junction and they send you back a scabbard with a reinforced throat and tip . It's not historically accurate and can be a little loose on the sword/dagger but it protects the blade and those around it. They can be strapped to a belt for Ren Faire wear. They were always far less than $100.

There may be a transport sheath market. People could mail tracings in and Brian could archive the tracings for people down the road. Just a thought.


thank you Chad;
I will take a look at that website.....that's good info, appreciate it. that is exactly the type of thing i'm looking for. again, thank you
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 16 Feb, 2009 7:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jim-

To the best of my knowledge, Brian K. does not make simple, cheap leather sheaths. Please correct me if I am wrong.

As far as I can tell, you're the one who brought up simple, cheap leather sheaths. This topic is about Brian K. considering making a "swordless scabbard" and it is to those people expressing an interest in his possible product that I addressed my post.

Please note that we're in the "makers" forum and what this topic is about...

I think your response answers the question and makes the point clear.

Thank you.

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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Mon 16 Feb, 2009 8:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jim J wrote:

Once again, we are talking about a loose fitting sheath to protect the blade when being carried or transported short distances rather than having no cover at all. this does not require custom fitting, just general measurements and does away with a wait of several weeks to several months while your treasured sword is at a scabbard maker, caught in a backlog.


If that's the case then I don't see the need to send the sword off at all, or even go through a vendor. If what's desired is simply a carry cover then anyone can make their way to their local leather store and obtain the needed materials, and for less than what they'd pay a vendor for. A basic cover would be obtained this way with none of the disadvantages you've mentioned, and since that's all that's desired it would really be impossible to mess it up.


Quote:
personally, I don't see why a basic sheath isn't provided by so called "high end" sword manufacturers along with the sword. the so called "low end" swords provide a fairly decent scabbard with their swords as do the manufacturers of Japanese style swords both high cost and low cost. to me a scabbard is part of the sword just as the hilt is part of the sword........but that is a matter for a different discussion.


Agreed, but as you said that's a whole seperate discussion involving things like business priorites, market niche, etc.


Last edited by Patrick Kelly on Mon 16 Feb, 2009 8:29 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Mon 16 Feb, 2009 8:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Patrick,
I totally understand your point, but you are also kind of reinforcing the first idea of this thread Happy :


Now that I reread this thread instead of skimming, I see your point. Strange how that works. Wink

Quote:
Was the fit on those scabbards as good as if they had been made for your particular example of a model? Did they require any adjustment to fit your own sword?


Yes, but only because they were made for production swords made to close tolerances, which is the only kind of sword I'd consider doing that with. I'd never do it with a production piece held to looser standards or especially with a custom piece.
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PostPosted: Mon 16 Feb, 2009 9:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gentlemen,

With all due respect, I'll reveal to what I've already admitted with Nathan in private regarding the matter. I did hastily start this thread not realizing the can of worms I was opening. I was brainstorming with my wife on the matter of simplifying certain processes within the business, and the possibilities of many different aspects. I've often used forums for discussional and brainstorming purposes, but being in the position I am in as a manufacturer I sometimes forget what a big ripple a small pebble tossed into the pond can cause.

I have a goal in mind for each and every scabbard I make, and that is to make the best scabbard each time. That requires many elements to come together just right. If something is off, it really offsets the rest of the scabbard. To make things even more complicated, I have to make the best scabbard I can with customer requested elements of color, tooling, etc. It truly is an art, and I'm really proud of myself for coming this far.

Ultimately though, it boils down to making the customer happy, and providing good customer service. Being a small business though, I have to limit my options I can provide to my customers in order to maintain a small waiting list. Right now, I'm fairly busy with what I currently offer, but I didn't have that on my mind when I started this thread. I'm always trying to think of bigger & better things, but I failed to put things into perspective. Eventually I would like to offer an entry level generic scabbard like the last half of this thread is mostly about, but right now I have more questions than answers for that, and a queue of high-end scabbard orders to worry about.

As a small business, I need to focus on a select few specialties, and be the best I can be with those. I don't want to be a business that offers everything, but only does them average. I want to be a business that does a few things, but does them as good or better than anyone else. Last but not least, I want my artistic passion to show each & every time. If my work no longer looks passionate or inspired, I'm no longer enjoying this.

Cheers!

Brian

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Feb, 2009 5:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scabbards with a small degree of elasticity in their fit might be more workable. Our reproductions tend to utilize a solidly glued up wood core with a precision interference fit. This is not necessarily the way it was done historically.

Wool lined scabbards could be offered. Melton wool (about 1/8" or 3 mm thick uncrushed...I usually fit the sword to compress it down to half that thickness) has a fair amount of stiffness and has not taken a set or relaxed noticeably in my cores over the past three years. I have been considering raw wool fibers (something like flocking or materials used by hat felters) and an application method like flocking. This may look more historical than an obvious layer of fabric at the mouth of the core.

At least one Roman era artifact / remnant of a scabbard had a slither of bone in the construction of the mouth area. There was no archeological conclusion about what the bone piece was for, but I suspect if could have been a form of shimming to achieve final fit.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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PostPosted: Tue 17 Feb, 2009 8:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My 2 cents...

I own two Albion campaign line scabbards (which used to be a decent deal at $250), and there are about four more in NYHFA that I've had the opportunity to play with. I have also had several Christian Fletcher scabbards pass through my hands.

The campaign line scabbards are made by Albion without the actual sword in their possession, but like the CF scabbards, the cores are fitted using machine tools. Almost all of the Albion scabbards fit about as well as the CF scabbards I've seen (which also vary in their fit...some are tight, some are loose, which is to be expected with wood, which contracts and expands due to climate). One of my own Albion scabbards was a bit loose, which I fixed with wood strips and Elmer's wood glue, another one in our group is a bit too tight. I have an Albion historical scabbard that is loose also, but because of the way it sits I don't see that as a problem (no opportunity for sword to fall out).

To complicate matters further, a student of mine bought an Albion Liechtenauer (blunt trainer) with a scabbard. He then bought a Talhoffer at NYCKS, and the Talhoffer fits in the Liechtenauer scabbard better than the Liechtenauer does. Even the shape of the cross fits perfectly with the mouth of the scabbard.

All machine fitted scabbards rely on a wedge effect at the base of the blade, and are by definition imperfect fits. Only cores cut entirely with hand tools can have a truly perfect fit...tight, but easily pulled free, because the wood grips the blade along its entire length (if done right). The cores I made out of balsa with hand tools fit this way, because I can make miniscule adjustments along the entire length of the blade as I go. I am not a very good scabbard maker, but using balsa lets met cheat (because it's so easy to work, yet still takes hours to do by hand).

The point is, if you use power tools to carve your cores, the fit is never going to be perfect anyway (at least I have yet to see a scabbard with a perfect fit cut with power tools). I don't know what method Brian uses, and the one scabbard of his I have seen (excellent quality, btw) also seems to use a wedge fit at the thickest part of the sword...just like all scabbards currently being produced by the major players. So making scabbards off of the same model sword is, to me, a very viable process, and if someone besides Albion can do it, more power to them. I think there would be a very big market for it, perhaps more so than for custom scabbards.

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PostPosted: Sun 29 Aug, 2010 6:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dragging this back to life from the not so long ago.

I just wanted to chime in to bring up that since I started offering sword-less scabbard order's it's been a great success, so far. It's been a great commodity to foreign client's as well as domestic. As a matter of fact, my scabbard making business has taken off way more than I can even keep up with. I've since hired an apprentice, and now my wife & I are contemplating starting a cheaper line with leather chapes only with entry level pricing.

Thank's to everyone who encouraged sword-less offerings, I greatly appreciate it. Thoughts & opinions on a entry level scabbard line would be of great value, if anyone is interested in discussing. At this point, it would be a leather chape only line, as metalwork is a bottleneck and would slow the flow. More importantly, handmade chapes are a driving force in raising the cost. So in order to keep the cost down, metal chapes aren't plausible at this time. Leather chapes can be unique though, as seen here: http://www.dbkcustomswords.com/images/blog/KK...pe1024.jpg

Thanks again!

Brian Kunz
www.dbkcustomswords.com
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PostPosted: Sun 29 Aug, 2010 8:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would be very interested in seeing a lower priced entry level line - I would love to have one of your scabbards but I can't afford one just yet. Even something very simple with the same quality of workmanship and fit as your other line would be quite tempting.
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PostPosted: Mon 30 Aug, 2010 6:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maybe offer a "no-chape" option as well Happy
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PostPosted: Mon 30 Aug, 2010 7:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would like to offer insights as a customer who has two of these "swordless scabbard" commissions. I have one complete scabbard/belt package for my Albion Count. It can be seen here: http://www.dbkcustomswords.com/custscabbs/MHAlbionCount.html

I'm hoping to add an Albion Ritter or Hospitaller for the scabbard at some point.

I also have a second scabbard/belt package made to fit all the Albion Type XII swords, i.e. Knight, Caithness, Laird, Squire Line Knightly. It fits them all very well. The inletting at the top of the core allows the cusps of both the Laird and Caithness guards to seat fully into the scabbard. But the straight crosses on the other swords fit very well too. And the rain flaps conceal the inletting so that it can't be seen in any case. The swords in scabbard have no movement. No binding. Secure hold. No dulling of edges. Exhibit good retention, yet draw smoothly. In addition, it fits two new ATrim swords (a Type XII.2 and a Xa.1) as well as it fits the Albion XIIs. This package can be seen here: http://www.dbkcustomswords.com/custscabbs/MHKnightCaithLaird.html

I find myself using this "all XIIs" scabbard almost all the time now. No matter what exercises, costuming or what-have-you, there's always an interesting sword to take along that fits this masterpiece. I have been extremely happy with these packages and cannot speak highly enough about working with Brian.
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