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Li Jin




Location: NYC
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PostPosted: Sat 31 Jan, 2009 2:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for your replies friends. Is very serious.
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J. Scott Moore





Joined: 25 Nov 2008

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PostPosted: Sat 31 Jan, 2009 7:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

M. Eversberg II wrote:
Quote:
You know, I've witnessed some soldiers in the infantry schools of the Marine Corps practicing with real bayonets, and was wondering if any WMA/EMA people had done the same...personally, I failed to see the value of the exercise, as you could not practice full speed...well, I see some value, but not much.


Firstly, how long ago was that? because, in my profession as a US Navy sailor, I have met US Navy SEALS that won't spar with live steel, their training guns are airsoft / paintball, or in extreme cases wood (disarming techniques) and the few marines I have met only ever used any sort of a sharp blade was to learn 2 cuts, (from left hip to right shoulder, and back down the same way.) most of marine training consists of unarmed martial arts ie boxing, and marksmanship. so far as I know they NEVER used any sort of live steel on each other.
I think they practiced bayonet techniques on dummies during Vietnam, but I may be mistaken.

-Scott

"Whoever desires peace, let him prepare for war."
-Vegetius
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Darryl Aoki





Joined: 12 Oct 2006

Posts: 93

PostPosted: Sat 31 Jan, 2009 7:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've seen several posters here with cautionary tales about test-cutting with sharps (against inert targets), and given their accounts, my opinion on sparring with live steel is "Heck no." Sparring with practice weapons can cause enough damage as it is.
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J. Scott Moore





Joined: 25 Nov 2008

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PostPosted: Sat 31 Jan, 2009 9:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bartek Strojek wrote:
Quote:
Also , it seems that he cut himself in the back of the leg. With missed cut one would expect cutting oneself to the front?

not necessarily, if you are cutting low, and miss, or the blade bounces off, and your leg is forward far enough, with your foot turned out just enough, you will slice up the back of your leg. I have seen it quite a few times with boy scouts that don't pay attention to the safety breifs on how to properly chop wood.

"Whoever desires peace, let him prepare for war."
-Vegetius
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M. Eversberg II




Location: California, Maryland, USA
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PostPosted: Sat 31 Jan, 2009 9:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J. Scott Moore wrote:
M. Eversberg II wrote:
Quote:
You know, I've witnessed some soldiers in the infantry schools of the Marine Corps practicing with real bayonets, and was wondering if any WMA/EMA people had done the same...personally, I failed to see the value of the exercise, as you could not practice full speed...well, I see some value, but not much.


Firstly, how long ago was that? because, in my profession as a US Navy sailor, I have met US Navy SEALS that won't spar with live steel, their training guns are airsoft / paintball, or in extreme cases wood (disarming techniques) and the few marines I have met only ever used any sort of a sharp blade was to learn 2 cuts, (from left hip to right shoulder, and back down the same way.) most of marine training consists of unarmed martial arts ie boxing, and marksmanship. so far as I know they NEVER used any sort of live steel on each other.
I think they practiced bayonet techniques on dummies during Vietnam, but I may be mistaken.

-Scott


I'd say I saw it neigh seven years ago now. I never quite believed it was the status quo, however.

I'd given consideration into drilling with a sharp, to go from against air to "pool noodle" right away...but I doubt I'd be doing this until I was quite good already. It's just like learning to drive or ride a bike: eventually you need to learn danger.

Against another human being though, no. I forced myself to watch those "obscure" videos depicting some very graphic things for the sole purpose of learning the severity of wounds. It has taught me a lot.

M.

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Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Sat 31 Jan, 2009 11:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

honestly I got that from sword buyers guide:P. I was just to lazy to say it in my own words and thus thats what the picture had labeled underneath.
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Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 333

PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2009 6:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

P. Cha wrote:
Andreas Auer wrote:
Eek! Eek! Eek! sorry but i just cant believe this... Eek! Eek! Eek!


Sadly the local ARMA group around here several years back did the exact same thing. Well almost, it wasn't for sparring but they did use sharps for their drills. They spouted the mantra of "we have control so it's okay"....Yeah...*facepalm*.

Li Jin...tell your friend to never EVER go back to that group again. Or if he does bring a gun so he can shoot them dead in self defense when they come at him with a sharp sword.



Where is "here"? Which ARMA study group are you talking about?

Within ARMA sharps are used only for test cutting but never for drills. Migth you be referring to blunt swords? In any case, ARMA has one of the best safety records within WMA.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2009 1:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Pleasant wrote:
P. Cha wrote:
Andreas Auer wrote:
Eek! Eek! Eek! sorry but i just cant believe this... Eek! Eek! Eek!


Sadly the local ARMA group around here several years back did the exact same thing. Well almost, it wasn't for sparring but they did use sharps for their drills. They spouted the mantra of "we have control so it's okay"....Yeah...*facepalm*.

Li Jin...tell your friend to never EVER go back to that group again. Or if he does bring a gun so he can shoot them dead in self defense when they come at him with a sharp sword.



Where is "here"? Which ARMA study group are you talking about?

Within ARMA sharps are used only for test cutting but never for drills. Migth you be referring to blunt swords? In any case, ARMA has one of the best safety records within WMA.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW


It was the ARMA group in nor cal. They met up in pleasanton. And no, it was NOT blunts. These were sharp swords. When I commented on how unsafe it was, I was told that it was okay because they have control. As for ARMA's safety record...shurg, whatever...the SCA also has a very good "safety record"...but I know for a fact that what we do ain't safe by a long shot...and we take WAY more safety precautions then I see the ARMA guys doing. And considering that the other WMA groups get medical attention for just about anything just to be safe and the ARMA guys are it's okay because we have control, I just don't buy it. I saw a guy's arm go numb from a sparring match and the ARMA guys are just wait it out because the damage couldn't have been that bad...after all the other guy swears he stopped the blow...any other WMA group...hell even the SCA would have contacted medical services at that point...which means it goes on your safety record. Having a good safety record because you don't get medical attention is NOT safe. I honestly have issues with safety and ARMA groups.

http://www.thearma.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23405

From your very own forum no less...that is bloody dangerous. Don't take this the wrong way, but this really is something you guys need to fix. And once again, read the message and it's the same mantra of it's okay because we have control. I HIGHLY disagree with this midset...because to think you can control accidents is absurd to say the least...and it gets people into the midset that they can do ANYTHING because they have control...like using sharp swords in drills.
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2009 3:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Those weren't sharp though, were they?

M.

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P. Cha




PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2009 6:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

M. Eversberg II wrote:
Those weren't sharp though, were they?

M.


The example in the forum were blunts...with no face masks (or really any other protective gear) and doing full intent sparring. The OP repeatly comments that it's all about practice practice practice...i.e it's okay we have control mantra of the ARMA.
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Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
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PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2009 8:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have it ask a question of the ARMA guys here. Please don't take this the wrong way. In all honesty, I heard something and I just want to know if it is true or people just talking B.S. I was told that John Clements half-sworded a sharp sword into his own leg at a demo. He then refused medical attention until the end of the demo. I was told he carried on the demo soaked in his own blood.

Again, I am only trying to find out if this is true or not. If false please detail the circumstances so I can confront the person who told me the next time I see him.


Not related...
I have seen that video of the ARMA sparring. I find it rather reckless to be sparring like that without masks. They really should also be using some hand protection, covering the joints and wearing a gorget on their throat. They may want to give high priority to wearing a cup too. It really sets a bad example... both outside the group and within. Swords don't need to be sharp or even pointy to take an eye. Quite honestly, that bit about control is nonsense and total B.S. They are fighting on grass in a natural outdoor setting. When you step on grass it releases moisture and can become slippery. The ground usually is uneven in some places. You can always trip on a root or a small branch. I don't care how much control they think they have, they can't control the environment on which they are fighting on. I love sword fighting very much but its not worth loosing an eye over. I don't want to see anyone in this community get seriously hurt over a hobby following this example of recklessness. If anyone thinks this is anything more then a hobby, they need a reality check.


A second issue that effects all WMA groups is that if someone in ARMA gets seriously hurt and files a claim, it will increase the premium of other WMA groups. That is how insurance works. They spread the risk around to everyone within a given field of coverage.

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
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Greg Coffman




Location: Lubbock, TX
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PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2009 9:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To the best of my knowledge, ARMA in no way shape or form suggests, encourages, or says it's okay to fight with sharps. I do not know about the particular study group in question in regards to drilling with sharps. But that would not be a normal practice. Nor do we generally advocate fighting with steel blunts or even wasters without proper head and groin protection. Safety is a high priority for us.

That being said, we also strongly emphasize control. Control is not a substitute for safety, nor safety a substitute for control. They compliment each other. We do things that may seem unsafe or less safe to other people or other groups. But it is precisely the aspect of control, coupled with safety, that allows us to go hard and fast and yet not hurt each other.

The two ARMA members in the video fighting with blunts without head protection are two of our most skilled and senior members (J. Clements being one of them). They demonstrated a very high level of control throughout the fight. That is something that would not be permitted at the average ARMA gathering. And it wasn't full intent sparring, not by a long shot. I would hope that would be obvious by the video.

Quote:
In all honesty, I heard something and I just want to know if it is true or people just talking B.S. I was told that John Clements half-sworded a sharp sword into his own leg at a demo.

I myself have no idea whether this is true or not and don't want to speculate.

I hope that clears up some of the ARMA issues while remaining on topic. Under no circumstances would I or anybody else I know in ARMA say that it is okay to fight with sharps.

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2009 10:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg Coffman wrote:
That being said, we also strongly emphasize control. Control is not a substitute for safety, nor safety a substitute for control. They compliment each other. We do things that may seem unsafe or less safe to other people or other groups. But it is precisely the aspect of control, coupled with safety, that allows us to go hard and fast and yet not hurt each other.

The two ARMA members in the video fighting with blunts without head protection are two of our most skilled and senior members (J. Clements being one of them). They demonstrated a very high level of control throughout the fight. That is something that would not be permitted at the average ARMA gathering. And it wasn't full intent sparring, not by a long shot. I would hope that would be obvious by the video.


The trouble is I don't see the safety. The utter lack of safety because of we have control is what is really at stake here...and if you read the comments following that video such action ARE advocated and to do so you just need more practice...i.e. we have control so it's okay. And this is from the TOP level of your organization?!? I find that utterly reckless...and a danger to the WMA community at large (as tsafa said, increased premium, bad press, etc etc). If you are at the top you should NEVER be seen without safety gear on if that truely is what your organization wants to promote. Hell if you wanna promote safety, those gears should be on when you drill and 1/4 speed...hell it should be on before you pick up a blunt or waster. And such behavior is what leads to some yahoos in a group to go, well it's okay to drill with sharps...or we don't need medical attention when a limb goes dead...or using DSA (a very stiff, 1mm edged sword that has a pointy tip) is okay for sparring. None of those are what I consider acceptable levels of risk...and it's not just you guys that your putting on the line, it's ALL of us.
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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2009 10:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm guessing that at this point that there is no chance to put this genie back in the bottle.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Greg Coffman




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PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2009 10:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Saying that the fighters in that video exhibited utter lack of safety is the same as saying they fought with full intent. That is just not the case. At no point do we say, you don't need safety if you have control. This is what was said on our forum:
Quote:
Safe but realistic preparation of a fighter for real combat is the entire function of training.

Yes, there is a level of control and skill that allows fighting with less safety gear in place. Part of developing that control actually requires using steel blunts. This is not to say that all of the steel sparring we do in ARMA is without head and face protection. Quite to the contrary. I do use gloves and fencing mask even when drilling with steel blunts. And not all of the mask-less sparring in ARMA is steel, a lot is with wasters. And the majority of sparring we do, the majority of people in ARMA, use a mask every time.

And yet, the top echelon of leadership is saying this is the standard. You shouldn't spar in this way all the time or in any particular way all the time. But sparring this way some of the time adds an important element to the training as a whole. This is the quality of sparring we are aiming for. This is the level of control we are looking to achieve. You can always wear more protection and you can always pad the weapon more. But nothing makes up for controlling you own actions and movements. Control is fundamental to safety.

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
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Greg Coffman




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PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2009 10:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe Fults wrote:
I'm guessing that at this point that there is no chance to put this genie back in the bottle.

There should be no reason we can't act civil in discussing this. On one hand the topic has changed from 'sparring with sharps' to 'sparring with less protective gear as demonstrated by ARMA.' But this discussion seems to be in the spirit of the initial post. How much intent is appropriate for sparring? How much safety is necessary? How much force should be applied against a sparring partner? These are all good questions for cross-organizational discussion even if we don't persuade each other. Personally I'd like to get this discussion away from the particulars of what ARMA does or doesn't do and talk about sparring in general terms. There is no hiding the fact that some people have animosity towards ARMA. That is really too bad. We don't have to agree on everything, but that doesn't mean we can't have a civil discussion with both sides acknowledging good arguments. In fact, I choose to participate on this forum and not on some other forums specifically because of the civility and graciousness I've found here.

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2009 11:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg Coffman wrote:
Saying that the fighters in that video exhibited utter lack of safety is the same as saying they fought with full intent. That is just not the case. At no point do we say, you don't need safety if you have control. This is what was said on our forum:


No actually that was said on the ARMA forum. Which is why I have an issue with it. The OP of the video basically is saying if you practice enough (i.e. have enoungh "control")...then you don't need protective gear(safety).

Quote:
Yes, there is a level of control and skill that allows fighting with less safety gear in place. Part of developing that control actually requires using steel blunts. This is not to say that all of the steel sparring we do in ARMA is without head and face protection. Quite to the contrary. I do use gloves and fencing mask even when drilling with steel blunts. And not all of the mask-less sparring in ARMA is steel, a lot is with wasters. And the majority of sparring we do, the majority of people in ARMA, use a mask every time.

And yet, the top echelon of leadership is saying this is the standard. You shouldn't spar in this way all the time or in any particular way all the time. But sparring this way some of the time adds an important element to the training as a whole. This is the quality of sparring we are aiming for. This is the level of control we are looking to achieve. You can always wear more protection and you can always pad the weapon more. But nothing makes up for controlling you own actions and movements. Control is fundamental to safety.


And I call BS on this. I don't care how much control you have, you can't control accidents...thats why they are accidents and not a planned stab to the eye. Or a planned slip on the grass. Or a planned trip over a clod of dirt. And basically your top level is saying that acting in this reckless manner is what you strive for?!? That's what you just said. And I'm saying that is a BAD thing...a VERY VERY VERY bad thing. Sorry about the font, but I want to make it perfectly clear exactly how bad this actually is. If your organization really did care about safety, like I said, your top people should have safety gear at all times...not being proud of their reckless behaviors. And lo and behold, you have the underlings doing very silly thing to follow their leader's example. Honestly I didn't realize that this sort of behavior was somthing the leaders of your group was advocating...I just figured it was some yahoos at the lower level. But with this info, I REALLY have issues with ARMA now. The leaders of your organization is putting the rest of us in jeapordy and I find that highly unacceptable.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2009 11:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

P. Cha-

Work on the way you're expressing yourself. You're out of bounds. Conduct yourself in a professional manner or, if you're unable to, please excuse yourself from participating in this topic.

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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Mon 02 Feb, 2009 12:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

While I may not be amongst the most intelligent or the most wise on these boards, I think I should bring forward one position. I may not necessarily be a fan of this position, nor do I condone or shun it.

We are discussing a martial art. This is, at the end of the day, a codified method of murder. We practice, fruitlessly, to possess a method of taking someones life away. Anything less is a sport. You will inevitably reach a point where your study is taken to the logical conclusion and you must place yourself into a risky situation. That is precisely what the ARMA video is: the logical conclusion. Whether we like it or not, it changes nothing. We may opt never to cross this line, but the end decision lies with the individual. If you never intend to cross this line, then you study with false pretenses. If you are never at risk, then what was the point?

Has anyone here gone sky diving? You need not drop from a plane now -- you can simply go into a vertical wind chamber. Same feeling, but with significantly less risk. Personally, I'd rather people not risk their life and attract bad media, but true media attention will always be negative towards weapons, in particular those so obsolete as the ones we pursue mastery in. It could very well be that I'm wrong, but I would like to point out exactly what we are talking about here.

Case point: Fighting with sharps should never be done unless you fully intend to kill someone, or die trying. Thusly, it shouldn't be attempted.

M.

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Gabriele A. Pini




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PostPosted: Mon 02 Feb, 2009 12:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I generally concord.

Sharp weapons are only for madmen, but for blunt steel we aren't talking of two newbie that spar at 4/4: we are talking of two masters. Even my master spar at full velocity, but only with his best friend, comrade in arms for over three years, and the first time I saw them I thinked: "if I pratice for a lot of years in a far future I can do this..." not "WOW, tomorrow I try this with live weapon and my little sister...".

This is why in battle we tend to fight between people of the same company, even if only in a mock style, because you never know who you can meet in a melee.

And for bruise and more serious injuries, I'm not so devastated doing reenactoring or sparring as my brother and my sister, who play in professional basketball (in Italy): for them to see one of the players with a bad distorsion or a knee fractured is an everygame fact. Bad, but not exceptional.
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