[Bill Sahigan]

Yes it was a more or less cliched piece of literature, the distinguishing difference is that it is the original, the one that started it all, the grand daddy to all fantasy(arguably... but don't). One can forgive alot for that. (Same reason that Shakespear is rubbish to most modern anglos but it is still considered a literary master-piece... despite the fact that almost all of its contents were copied to death by modern work.)


Also? 'Plate-Mail' sells movies, historic accuracy doesn't. Who wants to see a bunch of dirty unshaven Normans in rag-tag bits of maille when they can see Gondorians in shiny white armour?

[Zach Gordon]

Me,
I wouldn't change anything on the LOTR movies. I am a HUGE fan of the books as well as the movies. The movies I think of as almost different stories. I tend to imagine the books quite differently then the movies portrayal but also I like the way the movies were done. One thing I have heard about Tolkien is that he based the gondorians off of the Vikings (hence the sea culture and the winged helms, I know the vikings never had wings or horns on helms!!!)
What I heard was that (in the movie) the reason Sting and Glamdring look so different is that they are supposed to be so much older, later elves "evolved" to curved blades.
The arms&armor are one of the things I liked best about the movies. The swords were distinctly fantasy but had an aura of historical blades that modern films tend to lack (thank god WETA didn't go the way of Conan or the Eragon movie). The weapons and armor weren't historical but they shouldn't be it was a FANTASY movie. It bugs the crap out of me when someone makes a movie with a historical place/time/setting and then does fantasy swords and armor (Braveheart, King Arthur, etc.)

ZG
P.s. I think the book version of lotr was set between ~793-1066 (the viking era) as tolkien often talks about Beowulf being his inspiration for the story and the Bayeux Tapestry being his insperation for the arms and armor.

[Paul Watson]

Any attempt to compare any time within Tolkiens mythology with our own historical time results in numerous anachronism's. From his perspective the events of Lord of the Rings were set on Earth several thousand years before our own recorded histories.

As far as the Numenoreans and their descendants the Gondorians are concerned Tolkien compared them to the Egyptians with their manner of erecting monumental structures. He even specifically wrote that the rulers headress of the Southern & Northern Numenorean realms in exile (Gondor & Arnor) resembled the respective rulers headress of Southern & Northern Egypt, the former being a large tall item and the later being a simple diadem.

Even with these descriptions, this does not mean that Numenorean culture resembled that of the Egyptians, far from it, but these are elements that are taken from our history and placed into that of Midldle Earth.

[Viktor Chudinov]

Since the story in LOTR is somewhat based on European history, I would stick with it.
You see we have two empires - East(Gondor) and West(Arnor),and the eastern remains, altough it is far from it's previous glory. Oh,and north of Gondor we have some horse-people, who are generally in good relations with the empire, altough they had few conflicts. This situation is very much a like 8-9th century Europe - The Western roman empire has fallen, while the Eastern still stands. During the 6-th and 7th centuries from the north-east arrived different tribes that settled on the northern end of Byzantium. Particularly - the Bulgarian khaganate, which became one of the potent countries in these days. And also different arab invasions have teared pieces of the byzantium empire.

I personally believe that the whole siege of Minas Thirith event was based on the siege of Constantinople in 717-718 when large arab forces besieged the city. According to some accounts they had more than 80 000 men. And during the greatest hour of need ( poetical, isn't it), the Bulgars, led by khan Tervel came and kicked the Arab's back parts back into Asia. (Actually, mostly because they wouldn't want anyone else but themselves to take the city)

I would give the gondorians byzantine equipment, and byzantine style architecture. The Rohirrim will have early Bulgarian armament. I believe the people from Dale would have some more Russian type of things.
The orcs, and the evil men...definitely arab!
Aragorn would have more central European style of clothes. And the Shire - well Tolkien himself said that it was based after England

Just my PoV

[Gary Teuscher]

[Jeff Del Vecchio]

Also a fan of the books...I thought the films were an interesting approach and visually stunning. But, Tolkein was, IMHO, describing an earlier period. Remember that he had previously done an excellent translation of Beowulf, as well as Gawain and the Green Knight. Even in his early writings he seems to be describing Migration Period through Early Medieval.

Certainly, less plate, straight swords (single handed).

[Jeremy V. Krause]

First I will admit that I am a huge LOTR/Tolkien nerd- in fact, to give you an idea as to the extent of my devotion- my daughter who will be born in June will be named Lorien- as in Lothlorien- not Lorien the male dreamweaver Ainur.

So I liked the movies for their attempt at capturing Tolien's world. But for me the mystery and majesty of the elves, arms, and armour could not have been represented adequately on screen without looking strange to most viewers. For instance, Tolkien talks about the "rainment" that accompanies the elves and even is alluded to as following when they walked at night. Regarding the arms and armor those made by elves or dwarves would be far, far above what could be made by human hands. I believe that Tolkien's world was quite fantastical but still realistic in it's own complete whole.

This is just my concept of Tolkien's world but he was not the most specific of writers so much is left to the reader. I do think that Tolkien was intending on a more western style of arms and armor just of a mystical sense.

I know that this sounds romantic but wasn't Tolkien a romantic guy.

Oh, and I would have thought strait swords as well- and not necessarily leaf bladed- why do all non-historical weapons have to be leaf bladed

[Ed Toton]

[Gary Teuscher]

[Jeremy V. Krause]

I guess i should say that the world of Tolkien could NOT be represented on screen- meaning that his world really resides in the magic and limitlessness of the mind.

Given that- PJ did an okay job- how can I fault him for coming up short on something that lies beyond human ability.

Oh and NO modern fantasy holds a candle to Tolkien. Believe me I've tried all of the most popular and highly recommended and they pale in scope and depth.

Frank Herbert did an excellent job with Dune as far as Science Fiction goes.

[Viktor Chudinov]

[Lou Weaver]

kaor, paladins, panthans and paktuns all! anyone familiar with osprey's men-at-arms series should know angus mc'bride's work and perhaps the illus he did for I.C.E. middle-eath role playing ? my personal opinion is that it is pretty damn good! it aproaches tolkien's vision in many ways.

[Lafayette C Curtis]

[M. Eversberg II]

Cast swords?

M.

[Anders Backlund]

[Elling Polden]

I agree that the "visual style" of the rohrim and gondorians should be more dark age or late roman in style. However, the Rohirim are cut/pasted out of sagas like Beowulf (which Tolkien studdied in his professional life), and should be bayoux-style mail clad riders, rather than viking/saxons. Round center griped shields on horseback is not a very good idea...

However, my main beef with the battles in the movies is the ones in the Return of the King. They are to "turn based", and lack supense. The orks win, with no resistance. Then the rohrim show up, and win with no resistance. Then there is a star wars section. Enter the undead horde. Finish.
The gondorim dont offer enough resistance for the battle to be exiting, the suicide charge of the rohirim is not a suicide charge at all.. Again, compare to Kingdom of Heaven; Balians single line of horsemen charging into the superior lines of the saracens is epic. The rohirim are simply portayed as to many, and their charge hardly slows down before they run into the olifants. (which we shal omit entirely) The SHOULD have crashed into the mass of orks, lost half their front line, and pushed on, like a wave on a beach, while the viewer waits for their uninevitable slide back to the sea...

The final battle should also have been laid out like a convensional battle, with imposible odds, rather than huddling in a lump and waiting for a miracle.

Helms deep was good. the fighting was intense and two-sided enough for it to be exiting.

[Ben P.]

[quote="Elling Polden"]I agree that the "visual style" of the rohrim and gondorians should be more dark age or late roman in style. However, the Rohirim are cut/pasted out of sagas like Beowulf (which Tolkien studdied in his professional life), and should be bayoux-style mail clad riders, rather than viking/saxons. Round center griped shields on horseback is not a very good idea...

However, my main beef with the battles in the movies is the ones in the Return of the King. They are to "turn based", and lack supense. The orks win, with no resistance. Then the rohrim show up, and win with no resistance. Then there is a star wars section. Enter the undead horde. Finish.
The gondorim dont offer enough resistance for the battle to be exiting, the suicide charge of the rohirim is not a suicide charge at all.. Again, compare to Kingdom of Heaven; Balians single line of horsemen charging into the superior lines of the saracens is epic. The rohirim are simply portayed as to many, and their charge hardly slows down before they run into the olifants. (which we shal omit entirely) The SHOULD have crashed into the mass of orks, lost half their front line, and pushed on, like a wave on a beach, while the viewer waits for their uninevitable slide back to the sea...


That really ticked me off, how exactly did a bunch of gimpy little orcs manage to kill everyone despite the fact they were in full plate? In the book the Gondorians had the Rammas and Osgiliath to hold them off and it wasn't until they lost so many men there was no chance of victory that they finally withdrew and even then the orcs paid a heavy price and then using cavalry to charge Osgiliath and then the orcish bows punching through Faramirs cuirass...


The final battle should also have been laid out like a convensional battle, with imposible odds, rather than huddling in a lump and waiting for a miracle.

Well that was how it was in the book but they didn't charge they formed a sheldwall and waited on a hill in front of the gates so the orcs were bottlenecked by the gates and then they speared 'em

Helms deep was good. the fighting was intense and two-sided enough for it to be exiting.

Helms deep was good except for the fact that the uruks had magic crossbows and full plate

[Gary Teuscher]

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:

[Elling Polden]

The hordes of Mordor and Isengard are also the hordes of dark modernity, so their industrial look is pretty ok. Their armour could have been cruder, and their formations looser, but the general theme isn't that bad.
However, their heritage has been asexulalised in the movie. In the book they where ork-human hybrids, made in the good ol' fashioned way in the breeding pits. Which would also mean that they had time to train, rather than beeing kick ass right out of the cocoon.

[Julien M]

Having read Tolkien's book again and again since I was a kid, I also classify as a huge tolkien nerd and couldn't keep away from this thread anymore!

I'll stick to the thread topic closely (arms, armour and battles) and won't go into what I thought of the movies as I would cover a all page I'm afraid.

I fully agree reagarding the battle of the Pelenor Fields: it is less frightening and exciting than Helm's deep regardless of the massive scale and diversity of units involved.

But what seemed completely absurd to me was what followed the charge of the Rohirrims.
I'm not afraid to say that I was moved by the scale of it all and by Theoden's final call to arms...save the somewhat ridiculous scale of the Mumakils, all was all right until Aragorn showed up with its legions of undead warriors: as soon as they arrive, they happen to clean the battle field and the all city like a wave of detergent would dispose of bacteries...(still can't help thinking of some bathroom cleaner TV ad when I look at it).

In the end, the sacrifice of the Rohirrims appears completely trivial as we are lead to think that if Aragorn had arrived a few hours earlier with it's nemesis army, they could have all sat back in deckchairs on the hills around and watched the orcs being vaporised while drinking cocktails and sharing a few good jokes. Now given the tremendous power of those undead legions (in the book, they serve but a minor purpose in the grand scheme of things, as they only defeat the pirates of Umbar), the spectator is struggling to understand why no one would even think of unleashing them against Sauron (poor fellow, even the one ring looks like a useless gadget compared to this undead neutron bomb). And I guess P Jackson kinda knew he might have pushed it too far since he felt the need to have Gimli trying to convince Aragorn to keep them close...Aragorn of course refuses, because he's a man of his word, and obviously it makes more sense for him to keep his word and send all his friends to their doom. We have to acqknowledge how fine a strategist he is in the movie: had he unleashed them on Mordor instead of Minas Tirith all would have been disposed of in a matter of hours. So I can overlook a few silly details for the sake of entertainment, but not something that obvious. It simply ruined it all for me.

Now another thing: the fighting abilities of Legolas...Again, we can't help thinking after seeing him defeat a Mumakil and all its host without even breaking a sweat that a single unit of a thousand wood elves would have been enough to dispose of the mighty threat of the East (his colleagues at helms deep were probably all as mighty a warrior as legolas, but probably uninspired that day as they were all slained by the dozen, surely just content with" fighting and dying alongside men" as Haldir puts it...

I haven't been shocked by the size of the witch king's flail though, as I find this quiet characteristic of P Jackson's story telling technique: the more obvious the better. As a matter of facts I think this shot worked quiet well and that the witch king needed such an impressive tool to work on Eowin who after all just sliced his mighty foul beast like a knob of butter.

Cheers,

J