Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Breakthrough about sword balance... sort of ;) Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3 
Author Message
Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 860

PostPosted: Thu 19 Feb, 2009 4:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Vincent: Like I said in our P.M. exchange I think this method of showing the " stick " and the size/scale of the " point mass " using the length of the crossing line works better for me than some of the other graphic ways of trying to show the same thing.


Yes I think it works quite well, though the total mass ends up being hidden a bit. Here the total mass would be proportional to the product of the length of the rectangle and the length of the vertical bar. It does not make the point mass appear as big as it is in mass; it just shows the proportion between the point mass and the total mass.

But then maybe the total mass is not something we really feel. Maybe this representation is actually representative of what our brain feels: a stick with a given mass, and an unknown point mass somewhere with a given ratio to the stick?

Quote:
Great praise should again go the Mark at OlliN for being able to make such an extreme design into a good sword: The fact that the numbers put it in the class of good period swords and is close to the Big Johnson made by Peter Johnsson in nature sort of tells me something right there. Big Grin Cool


Indeed Happy
I'm actually still fairly surprised at how consistent the results seem to be from maker to maker. I even wonder if this consistency was achieved in the old days... For something never computed by anyone, an accuracy of roughly an inch is impressive to achieve Cool

Regards,

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Thom R.




Location: Tucson
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Reading list: 30 books

Posts: 630

PostPosted: Thu 19 Feb, 2009 8:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have another one I want you to plot that ought to go along with Patrick's and Jean's swords..... my new A&A which is a bit on the heavier side. its an Oakeshott type XVIII/XVIIIa very similar to Oakeshott XVIIIa.4 in Records
blade length 31.5
blade width 2.0
total length 40.6
POB 3.0
PP for cross 21.75
weight 1530

thanks Vincent, tr
View user's profile Send private message
Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 860

PostPosted: Thu 19 Feb, 2009 2:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Thom!

Here is a representation of your new sword, along with your other longswords and the 'big swords':



Seems to make about the same design choice as the other heavier swords, the additional mass goes in the point mass but not much in the stick... And still the point mass is nearly at the cross. To be more accurate with numbers if you like: 378g in stick, 1152g in a point mass located 7.5mm from the cross.

Thanks again!

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 860

PostPosted: Thu 23 Apr, 2009 2:01 pm    Post subject: Some new swords !         Reply with quote

Hello all!

Jean Thibodeau has recently sent me data about three other swords he owns (thanks again Jean Cool !), and I finally get around to post about these. They are Albion Gaddhjalt, Tritonia, and Doge. They are quite interesting for me because they challenge some of the patterns I have been seeing and describing in earlier posts.

But first, here are the swords Jean has told me about so far:


(the measurements for the Black Prince were actually from David E. Farrell but Jean owns this sword as well)

I have sorted them from top to bottom by the inertia of their 'stick' around the cross. This is apparently a fair measure of how easy the swords are to stop after a cut, a sort of 'blade presence' if you like. It matches what Jean told me except maybe for the Del Tin. He wrote earlier that the DT5146 felt more agile than the Gaddhjalt... So there is still something to sort out there, inertia alone should probably be composed with other indicators to fit the subjective evaluation.

For example, the mass concentration (relative amplitude of the point mass) could enhance the feeling of agility. It's probably what explains that the RavenWolf feels different, it has a relatively high inertia but also a high mass concentration. In a way it could make it feel agile but actually tiring to use...

The three new swords have fairly heavy sticks, which lends a lot of authority to their strikes. I had only sparse data on swords with this property. The Tritonia is the heaviest hitter, or at least the heaviest stick.

The location of the point mass surprised me in the three new swords. It is significantly inside the handle (enough that I don't think a measurement error alone could explain it). It is possible that the actual effect of this variation is barely noticeable in actual use, or that building such swords with a point mass at the cross is not practically possible. I will have to make more experiments with objects differing only by the location of their point mass to get a better idea.

Note that the Black Prince looks very light on the diagram, belying its overall weight completely. Very light stick, very low inertia, high mass concentration... A radically different compromise in mass distribution. Even without considering that it can be used in two hands Wink

Overall these are three very interesting swords because they do not look like any other I had data about previously. They are filling a blank area, so to speak. But there are still plenty of blank areas, as well as certain trends that start to emerge... For example, there is a definite trend that swords with a high stick mass have a proportionally high inertia, and variations around this trend show how swords are shortened to optimize impact, or lengthened to optimize reach. I still feel there are many ways I can inspect the data, trying to correlate with how the sword feel and how I know they can function.

I'm going to steadily keep trying to measure as many swords as I can to fill in the blanks Happy But I wish to thank again the community for the measurement effort, which has helped me a bunch. I'm trying to develop web tools that will be specifically made so that anyone can play with the computations without having to wrap their heads around the math. Hopefully this will allow further progress in our knowledge of swords!

Kindest regards,

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,251

PostPosted: Thu 23 Apr, 2009 3:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Going through your post line by line there is little if nothing that contradict my subjective impressions:

The Black Prince feels like a feather and might still cut well because one could accelerate it the most ?

The RavenWolf would be tiring but still fast to move until one did tire: Would prefer to use a shield with it and use timing rather than complex defensive moves with the sword i.e. use the sword when the shield has set up the opportunity to attack. if I was redesigning it with my current fencing experience I might scale the sword down to 5/6 in all dimensions and end up with a 3 pound sword rather than a 5 pound sword. This sword is very much for a very strong swordsman and should be very hard to parry when up to speed, except obviously if one does it correctly on it's weak but stopping it with a mid blade parry might be difficult.

Oh, and I've mentioned before, even though the handle is short I find the pommel very easy to use for a twohanded grip: With such a short grip one does lose a lot of the leverage advantages of a longer handle but one would and could use the RavenWolf with two hands if one was tired. Wink And in two hands one would move it as much using one's entire body and not just from the arm and shoulder: One would almost rotate one's body around the sword rather than just moving the sword i.e. the sword/body moving as a unit ! Under these conditions the sword is fast and NOT tiring ...... it's almost as if one would have to create a fencing style specifically adapted for it ?

Totally subjective but the more I get used to a sword the less tiring it seems, all thing being equal, or the less it's handling seems odd as I adapt to it. ( Assuming it's a good sword ! But maybe GOOD comes in different FLAVOURS when it comes to swords ? ).

I find the Del Tin very easy to move around and not slow but at the same time very VERY long blades have their disadvantages when fencing as one's weak is way out there and very weak and when too long the point might jamb on the floor or hard to bring back far enough to disengage from a parry ? ..... On the other hand a lot of reach can be good ! Well fencing styles with the Del Tin or these other swords is another Topic but handling imposes what styles will work with a specific type/length of sword. ( Not a fencing expert so I'm guessing here ).

When comparing the point masses positions of the Tritonia and the Gaddhjalt the differences in positions might be cancelled out by the size of the point masses ? Change the point mass but also changing the position could result in very minor differences in subjective feel ?

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
David E. Farrell




Location: Evanston, IL
Joined: 25 Jun 2007

Posts: 156

PostPosted: Fri 24 Apr, 2009 6:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Going through your post line by line there is little if nothing that contradict my subjective impressions:

The Black Prince feels like a feather and might still cut well because one could accelerate it the most ?


For me, the BP feels heavy in the hand (when static) but moves gracefully and with power, especially in the thrust. Probably our respective reference points though. I am actually trying to find a blunt trainer that can mimic its behavior (sadly, I'll probably have to settle for one that doesn't and try and get a custom blunt that does at some point), because it is so different than say a typical type XIIa or XIIIa, which many trainers seem to approximate more.

AKA: 'Sparky' (so I don't need to explain later Wink )

For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
-- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare

Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused... but on a higher level.
-- Enrico Fermi
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,251

PostPosted: Fri 24 Apr, 2009 8:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David E. Farrell wrote:

For me, the BP feels heavy in the hand (when static) but moves gracefully and with power, especially in the thrust. Probably our respective reference points though. I am actually trying to find a blunt trainer that can mimic its behavior (sadly, I'll probably have to settle for one that doesn't and try and get a custom blunt that does at some point), because it is so different than say a typical type XIIa or XIIIa, which many trainers seem to approximate more.


Well the Tinker blunt, although lighter than the Black Prince, feel " closer " to the Black Prince in my opinion than the heavier Albion Liechtenauer: A training partner at my longsword group has one and it feels very lively the way the Black Prince does.

If you can find one you can handle before deciding if it will work for you as a BP sustitute you could decide for yourself.

http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~SH23...gsword.htm

By the way holding up well to contact with my Albion.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
David E. Farrell




Location: Evanston, IL
Joined: 25 Jun 2007

Posts: 156

PostPosted: Sat 25 Apr, 2009 4:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
David E. Farrell wrote:

For me, the BP feels heavy in the hand (when static) but moves gracefully and with power, especially in the thrust. Probably our respective reference points though. I am actually trying to find a blunt trainer that can mimic its behavior (sadly, I'll probably have to settle for one that doesn't and try and get a custom blunt that does at some point), because it is so different than say a typical type XIIa or XIIIa, which many trainers seem to approximate more.


Well the Tinker blunt, although lighter than the Black Prince, feel " closer " to the Black Prince in my opinion than the heavier Albion Liechtenauer: A training partner at my longsword group has one and it feels very lively the way the Black Prince does.

If you can find one you can handle before deciding if it will work for you as a BP sustitute you could decide for yourself.

http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~SH23...gsword.htm

By the way holding up well to contact with my Albion.


One of my instructors has ordered a set of the tinkers, so I hope to be trying one out relatively soon. If I do get one, I may also send it out to tinker to get the handle shortened by about an inch or two- it'll alter the handling, by moving the COB out toward the point by a bit and possibly shifting the COP (I haven't done the calculations to figure out by how much - I don't have the info on hand to get good numbers). But I'll handle one before I decide about that.

Good to hear they can hold up well against the albion tanks - nice trainers and handle well, but dang are they beasts... no question of durability with them.

AKA: 'Sparky' (so I don't need to explain later Wink )

For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
-- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare

Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused... but on a higher level.
-- Enrico Fermi
View user's profile Send private message
Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 860

PostPosted: Sat 25 Apr, 2009 6:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello!

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Totally subjective but the more I get used to a sword the less tiring it seems, all thing being equal, or the less it's handling seems odd as I adapt to it.


Yes, I think we do get used to weapons. After a while our body learns how the weapon moves and how to control it with the least effort. However I think we have some sort of 'default controler' built in that enables us to adapt quickly enough Happy Or perhaps we just develop it through the handling of many swords?

Since my first post in this thread I've been wondering if this stick+mass equivalent could be close to the representation our brain uses as a basis for the 'default controler'. This would be quite difficult to test though Wink

At the very least it seems to allow for comparisons, meaning that if you have a favourite sword it should be possible to determine how close another sword is to it as far as mass distribution is concerned.

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
But maybe GOOD comes in different FLAVOURS when it comes to swords ?


Most probably Big Grin There seems to be much variability in the thickness of the stick, and plenty of variations in the magnitude of the point mass. I'm starting to toy around with an illustration of the possible variations, but it's not ready yet.

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
When comparing the point masses positions of the Tritonia and the Gaddhjalt the differences in positions might be cancelled out by the size of the point masses ? Change the point mass but also changing the position could result in very minor differences in subjective feel ?


Indeed, I'm starting to compare the moments of the point masses relative to the cross (that is, weight of the point mass times distance to the cross). It seems to lessen the variations a bit. Still experimenting on that...

David E. Farrell wrote:
Jean Thibodeau wrote:
The Black Prince feels like a feather and might still cut well because one could accelerate it the most ?
For me, the BP feels heavy in the hand (when static) but moves gracefully and with power, especially in the thrust. Probably our respective reference points though.


I don't think your opinions are in contradiction; The Black Prince has this big point mass at the cross and a more concentrated mass than any sword I have numbers for. This big point mass feels heavy at rest, and lends a fair deal of impact in thrusts. On the other hand the stick part is ligther, which means it is relatively easy to accelerate or decelerate the sword in rotation. I think that's what Jean means when he writes 'like a feather'. Of course you could also argue that Jean seems to have a natural taste for big swords and a collection fitting his taste Happy And yes, in order to cut you can favour mass or speed, the effects will be different but both can work in the right conditions...

By the way, if you guys manage to measure the Albion and Tinker blunts, I'll be happy to compare their mass distribution to the Black Prince and between one another Big Grin

Regards,

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
David E. Farrell




Location: Evanston, IL
Joined: 25 Jun 2007

Posts: 156

PostPosted: Sat 25 Apr, 2009 6:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
Hello!
I don't think your opinions are in contradiction; The Black Prince has this big point mass at the cross and a more concentrated mass than any sword I have numbers for. This big point mass feels heavy at rest, and lends a fair deal of impact in thrusts. On the other hand the stick part is ligther, which means it is relatively easy to accelerate or decelerate the sword in rotation. I think that's what Jean means when he writes 'like a feather'. Of course you could also argue that Jean seems to have a natural taste for big swords and a collection fitting his taste Happy And yes, in order to cut you can favour mass or speed, the effects will be different but both can work in the right conditions...

By the way, if you guys manage to measure the Albion and Tinker blunts, I'll be happy to compare their mass distribution to the Black Prince and between one another Big Grin


very true - but it is interesting that there still seems to be some common trends in the swords measured.

If I get my hands on a tinker blunt (or sharp) I'll be sure to send some measurements your way.

AKA: 'Sparky' (so I don't need to explain later Wink )

For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
-- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare

Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused... but on a higher level.
-- Enrico Fermi
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Breakthrough about sword balance... sort of ;)
Page 3 of 3 Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3 All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2020 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum