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Dan Howard
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 Posted: Fri 09 Jan, 2009 3:59 am Post subject: |
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Nobody disputes that mail is more effective with some sort of padding underneath. The contention is whether "vikings" made use of a garment specifically designed to be worn under mail or whether they simply wore their mail over regular clothing - perhaps heavy wool.
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M. Eversberg II
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| Posted: Fri 09 Jan, 2009 6:40 am Post subject: |
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I figure they just wore extra shirts. These wouldn't show up as armor padding in a grave, because it probably wouldn't be buried like that. Maille is cold. Layer up.
M.
This space for rent or lease.
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Gary Teuscher
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| Posted: Fri 09 Jan, 2009 7:43 am Post subject: |
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Let's say it was customary to wear 2 linen shirts, a thick wool tunic, and a leather coat under mail. This probably has similar protective values to a gambeson, so what makes it different from "textile armour"?
Another thing is some of what we view as "evidence" is artists renditions of armour worn. There is the illustration of a Saxon warrior with the diamond pattern on a tunic. It is argued by some this is scale, but it does not look like scale but could be a bad representation of it. It's also argued by some it is leather cut in the shape of diamonds, and sewn together as armour. It could well be a different pattern of quilt than the tubular type - the diamonds show the stitching. Or it could well be just a tunic with designs on it. Point here is even pictorial "evidence" is very subjective and open to interpretation, but it is included in what soe deem "evidence".
| Quote: | | The 170J blade vs mail&jack test done by Alan Williams was not conducted using the padding which supposedly provided 80J protection but rather a much heavier piece of padding made up of 30 layers of heavy linen meant to simulate a 15th century Jack. |
I would not have 30 layers of linen only representing 15th century Jacks. There is a mention of Byzantine "Frankish" mercenaries wearing textile armour, this is close to the exact quotation, something to the effect of "23 layers of linen, treated with rough wine to make it almost impervious to sword cuts". So the 30 layered lined jack certainly was not exclusive to the 15th century. I never did quite get the rough wine thing though 
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Fri 09 Jan, 2009 8:40 am Post subject: |
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Even without padding, mail is a LOT better than no armour at all.
Also keep in mind that leather or cloth armour is not cheap either. (costing about half as much as the hauberk itself in the middle ages)
Also, if leather padding was used in the viking age, it would obviosly not have been good enough to survive into the middle ages, when we DO have sources on what padding people wore, leather not beeing amongst it.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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James Barker
Location: Ashburn VA Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 365
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| Posted: Fri 09 Jan, 2009 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| C. Gadda wrote: | | 2. Evidence for padding at least in periods before and after the Viking Age. |
Not a good argument. We know cultures in the Iron Age had belt loops on pants and we had them post medieval that does not mean medieval people had pants with belt loops.
Lots of cultures had padded armor and we have proof they specifically had it; we need something that specific for the so called "Viking" age.
If Scandinavian cultures had padding where did they get the cotton stuffing? England had to import theirs in the Middle Ages; southern France, Italy, and Spain supplied that resource as most of Europe was too cold to grow cotton. We know Scandinavian’s traded in the "Viking" era but was their trading large enough to supply their warrior class with enough cotton for padded garments at this time?
Just to throw a monkey wrench into the works what about all the Roman era depictions of auxiliary men wearing a maille shirt over just a tunic? Would you argue they must have had a padding on under the maille because some Romans may have used them?
There are 15th century images of soldiers wearing maille with no jack over and no padding under either.
James Barker
Historic Life http://www.historiclife.com/index.html
Archer in La Belle Compagnie http://www.labelle.org/
Last edited by James Barker on Fri 09 Jan, 2009 9:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 09 Jan, 2009 9:53 am Post subject: |
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I'd like to remind everyone to stay courteous and civil. There's no good reason to get all worked up.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Gary Teuscher
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| Posted: Fri 09 Jan, 2009 10:04 am Post subject: |
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James Barker wrote:
| Quote: | | If Scandinavian cultures had padding where did they get the cotton stuffing? England had to import theirs in the Middle Ages; southern France, Italy, and Spain supplied that resource as most of Europe was too cold to grow cotton. We know Scandinavian’s traded in the "Viking" era but was their trading large enough to supply their warrior class with enough cotton for padded garments at this time? |
This is assuming that the padding they wore was expected to be cotton. Wool, linen , leather are all options, there are records of middle ages "padding" that is merely many leayers of linen, that could have had cotton but is certainly not mentioned.
Stuffing a garment with wool could easily make a gambeson as well. Not saying this is how it was done, but there is no need for cotton to make "padded" garments.
| Quote: | | Just to throw a monkey wrench into the works what about all the Roman era depictions of auxiliary men wearing a maille shirt over just a tunic? Would you argue they must have had a padding on under the maille because some Romans may have used them? |
And you can tell from these illustrations that the garment was not multi layered, thick, or functioned as a padded garment?
Elling Polden wrote:
| Quote: | | Also, if leather padding was used in the viking age, it would obviosly not have been good enough to survive into the middle ages, when we DO have sources on what padding people wore, leather not beeing amongst it. |
We have names of the garments, descriptions to a point of some. Saying that leather was not used in the make of any of these is a big assumption, at least as big of an assumption as assuming that vikings wore padded garments.
We have the "Buff coat" of later times. I wonder if these sprang out of no where or had been used for some time as a padded garment.
Perhaps one important issue is that a leather coat or a thick wollen tunic, or both with layers of other things were probably not regarded as "armour", they were similar to everyday materials. But a thick woolen tunic under a few layers of linen and or leather provides a decent "pad" to have under mail.
| Quote: | | Even without padding, mail is a LOT better than no armour at all. |
Sure. And using this logic, some combination of a leather shirt, a few layers of linen and a thick woolen tunic are also better than no armour at all. If you use that as an argument that mail was worn without padding, it is just as good of an argument to use why some leather/textile combination was used as a poorer form of protection.
Last edited by Gary Teuscher on Fri 09 Jan, 2009 10:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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David Huggins
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| Posted: Fri 09 Jan, 2009 10:25 am Post subject: Viking Padding |
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Padding may have consisted of any number of materials surely, horse hair, hemp fibres, nettle fibres etc.
The 'Vikings' even reused 'clothing' as a caulking materials in their sea vessels...why not also reused as a padding?
Perhaps even belt loops had a cyclic fashion as much as any number of fashion items have come into and fell out of favour a number of times.
best
Dave
and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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James Barker
Location: Ashburn VA Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 365
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| Posted: Fri 09 Jan, 2009 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| Gary Teuscher wrote: | This is assuming that the padding they wore was expected to be cotton. Wool, linen , leather are all options, there are records of middle ages "padding" that is merely many leayers of linen, that could have had cotton but is certainly not mentioned.
Stuffing a garment with wool could easily make a gambeson as well. Not saying this is how it was done, but there is no need for cotton to make "padded" garments. |
Sure they could have used something else but did they? Every culture in varied time periods with good evidence of padded armors used layered linen or garments stuffed with cotton. All the medieval examples are cotton stuffed, the word Aketon is derived from the Arab word for cotton in the 12th century when we know these kind of armors became popular in Europe. The suspected Roman examples cotton stuffed. Arab examples cotton stuffed. Ancient Greeks layered linen, late middle ages Europe layered linen. I have never seen an linen tow or wool stuffed armor.
The only odd examples are the helm liners in AAotMK with a horse hair liner.
| Gary Teuscher wrote: | | And you can tell from these illustrations that the garment was not multi layered, thick, or functioned as a padded garment? |
As to the Roman auxiliary soldier it is clear in Trajan's column they just have on tunics. Some suspect stiffened or padded armors in roman images but they have no drape; the soldiers on the column have the drape of a tunic for their garments.
| Gary Teuscher wrote: | | We have the "Buff coat" of later times. I wonder if these sprang out of no where or had been used for some time as a padded garment. |
Buff coats don't spring out of no where; they are an answer to a different set of military standards.
James Barker
Historic Life http://www.historiclife.com/index.html
Archer in La Belle Compagnie http://www.labelle.org/
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Douglas S
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| Posted: Fri 09 Jan, 2009 11:31 am Post subject: |
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To assume that the practical choice was always what was chosen is to fly in the face of most human history.
Sure, mail works better with padding, but that still doesn't prove that the Vikings wore padding with their armor.
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David Huggins
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| Posted: Fri 09 Jan, 2009 12:26 pm Post subject: Viking padding |
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James,
It is a broad statement to say that all medieval examples of padded armour used cotton,.There is a reamining example of a 'Jack' in the Royal Armouries Collection that is padded with nettle. Nettle is abundant through out Europe, requires little if any cultivation and would be cheaper then importing cotton, especially for a cash strapped medieval king! At least some one thought it worthy of use.
It would be difficult to say that this example is or is not an exception, in as much as it would be difficult to say that all late iron age trousers had belt loops based on the small amount of evidence available. Germanic auxillaries depicted on Trajans Column have their trouser rolled over at the waist, they may or may not have had belt loops.
Dave
and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Fri 09 Jan, 2009 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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In the middle ages, scandinavians made cloth armour from linnen canvas. This is described in litterary sources from the mid 13th centrury. There is no mention of leather in these sources.
These later sources also often specify that people are wearing both mail and padding. (f.e "He was hit by a trown spear between the shoulderblades, but he was wearing mail and a strong arming coat, som it did not harm him")
You might plausibly wear extra clothing beneath you mail if you want to, but leather as an armour material is not documented, or as natural as one would think. Keep in mind that cattle ranching was not widespread in northern europe at this point, and that hides where to a large extent used for things like shoes (which needed replacing quite often)
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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James Barker
Location: Ashburn VA Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 365
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| Posted: Fri 09 Jan, 2009 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: Viking padding |
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| David Huggins wrote: | | It is a broad statement to say that all medieval examples of padded armour used cotton,.There is a reamining example of a 'Jack' in the Royal Armouries Collection that is padded with nettle. Nettle is abundant through out Europe, requires little if any cultivation and would be cheaper then importing cotton, especially for a cash strapped medieval king! At least some one thought it worthy of use. |
Well that is news to me; I understood the one they are examining now was also raw cotton.
James Barker
Historic Life http://www.historiclife.com/index.html
Archer in La Belle Compagnie http://www.labelle.org/
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Fri 09 Jan, 2009 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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David,
I have not heard of any RA research on a jack recently finding nettle but did hear one had raw wool between linen layers from a recent examination of one. I actually got to speak to the one looking at it which was interesting news. I'd love more info if you have it. In a 17th century padded helmet liner I examined it had some plant matter that looked like it was very raw when used and coarse as well which could have been nettle I suppose.
RPM
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David Huggins
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| Posted: Sat 10 Jan, 2009 12:52 am Post subject: Viking Padding |
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Hi Randall,
If i recall the source for my statement correctly it was in a description to a plate of said Jack from the book 'Teasures from the Tower',a book accompanying an exhibition of items from the Royal Armouries held in the early late 80's/early 90's .
I no longer have that book in my library but if some one does they may be able to verify my dwindling memory 
The reason I remember it was because of the nettle used for the padding, which I must admit I had not heard of or considered before, but was deemed worthy of mention in the description, so it may well have been considered unusual or suprising to the author.
best
Dave
and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sat 10 Jan, 2009 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| Elling Polden wrote: |
You might plausibly wear extra clothing beneath you mail if you want to, but leather as an armour material is not documented, or as natural as one would think. Keep in mind that cattle ranching was not widespread in northern europe at this point, and that hides where to a large extent used for things like shoes (which needed replacing quite often) |
In cold weather one might be tempted to wear an extra shirt or two if one had them and in hot weather one might be tempted to wear only a linen shirt ?
Some degree of padding between a shirt or multiple shirts or a padded garment but after reading comments on this subject over a few years I've sort of been convinced that leather is less probable than what we would expect with our " modern " perspective as leather may have been costly and multiple layers of cloth as protective if not more so.
As far as protective qualities: Blunt trauma protection may not have been as high in priority as we assume and the protection from lighter blows and mostly draw cuts would have been more than adequate in a period where many or most of one's opponents in a battle would have only a shield and helm as protection ? The heavier weapons like the two handed Danish axe having so much blunt trauma potential that the difference between no padding and a little padding might have made the use of padding seem useless unless it was very heavy padding. ( The all or nothing philosophy of armour ).
The regular one handed swords not having as much blunt trauma potential and mostly the shield being the first line of defence i.e. draw cuts being the thing that the maille was mostly useful as protection from ? ( Just some ideas thrown out there for discussion as speculation why heavy padding in this period might not have been considered essential ? ).
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Carl W.
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| Posted: Sat 10 Jan, 2009 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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Fwiw, I agree with Jean's thought. Use of mail may not have been only or primarily vs. very heavy blows. Slices, partly deflected contact, etc. etc. must also have been "very worrisome" without modern medical care. If mail was all you could get, & did nothing more than help against those I suspect one would still gladly wear it.
However, a bit of padding (especially in cold weather :-) also makes sense, so would not surprise me if found someday.
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Gary Teuscher
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| Posted: Sun 11 Jan, 2009 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Some degree of padding between a shirt or multiple shirts or a padded garment but after reading comments on this subject over a few years I've sort of been convinced that leather is less probable than what we would expect with our " modern " perspective as leather may have been costly and multiple layers of cloth as protective if not more so. |
Actually, based on what was available, I'd agree that something along the line of a few layers of linen and some thick woolen garments should be most likley. Silk was also wron in Viking areas during this time, would have been good in addition or as a substitute for the linen for the more well off (and wearing mail by itself implies one is more well off). The leather thing comes mostly from that damned mention of reindeer hide in the sagas. While it is certainly not proof, the legends have a basis in fact. The fact that leather is mentioned as "enchanted armour" does of course not make me think viking were wearing enchanted reindeer hides, but at the same time sagas have warriors using "enchanted swords", not enchanted kitchen cleavers" in combat. So there may be some truth to the fact that leather was used to some point in garments under mail and possibly used themselves, but it would have to be in a multi layered textile based garment.
| Quote: | | As far as protective qualities: Blunt trauma protection may not have been as high in priority as we assume and the protection from lighter blows and mostly draw cuts would have been more than adequate in a period where many or most of one's opponents in a battle would have only a shield and helm as protection ? The heavier weapons like the two handed Danish axe having so much blunt trauma potential that the difference between no padding and a little padding might have made the use of padding seem useless unless it was very heavy padding. ( The all or nothing philosophy of armour ). |
The swords and one handed axes in use at the time are weapons capable of delivering powerful blunt trauma themselves. Using this idea, the Romans would have has even less of a need for padding under mail, as many of their opponents used shorter swords less capable of delivering blunt impact than in use during viking times.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sun 11 Jan, 2009 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Gary Teuscher wrote: | | The leather thing comes mostly from that damned mention of reindeer hide in the sagas. While it is certainly not proof, the legends have a basis in fact. The fact that leather is mentioned as "enchanted armour" does of course not make me think viking were wearing enchanted reindeer hides, but at the same time sagas have warriors using "enchanted swords", not enchanted kitchen cleavers" in combat. So there may be some truth to the fact that leather was used to some point in garments under mail and possibly used themselves, but it would have to be in a multi layered textile based garment. |
Actually the correct analogy would be "enchanted kichen knife". The sagas mention an item of CLOTHING made from reindeer hide, not armour. By itself it is useless in battle. It is a domestic item enchanted so it can function as armour in battle.
| Quote: | | The swords and one handed axes in use at the time are weapons capable of delivering powerful blunt trauma themselves. Using this idea, the Romans would have has even less of a need for padding under mail, as many of their opponents used shorter swords less capable of delivering blunt impact than in use during viking times. |
The largest threat on any of these battlefields came from spears and arrows. Threats from any other weapon is a far distant second. Armour should be examined with this context in mind.
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Gary Teuscher
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| Posted: Sun 11 Jan, 2009 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The largest threat on any of these battlefields came from spears and arrows. Threats from any other weapon is a far distant second. Armour should be examined with this context in mind. |
Agreed. But this was the case througout history, nothing being that different from the classical period, the "Viking" period, or later on in the middle ages.
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