[Craig Johnson]

Hi Mark

I think your points where good ones and it is best to be open and think about all options when tracking something like this down. The ideas I have come from a particular viewpoint and lord knows it is not always the right one. Just ask my kids .

Thanks for the lead on Kormáks saga, I have not read sagas in a long time and it would be good to reread them in general and in this case in particular.

I also have someone looking in some old norse and German sources for root words and examples.

Best
Craig

[Xan Stepp]

Mark,
Thanks for that lead, it was exactly what I needed to get a handle on things. I assume you mean Ch. 9 of Kormáks saga, in which he gets the blade and tries to pull it out. There are some things there that could indicate a fuller, but I wouldn´t say that they are clear. However, that line of reasoning lead me to a couple of interesting things.

The first is a Dictionary entry in Cleasby/Vigfusson. Fortunately, the whole thing is online, and here is the page:

http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/html/oi_cleasbyvigfusson/b0069.html

The word we are looking at is blóðrefill, which literally means "blood-tapestry." This could be pattern welding or any number of things, so I tried a few other places. Since it is late here, and things are closed for the holidays, I couldn't access the Dictionary of Old Norse Prose, but I did find a commentary on the word:

http://lettuce.tapor.uvic.ca/cocoon/journals/...poole_1_15

Apparently, some people think that it could be a fuller, and my reading of the texts seems to indicate that it is fixed object on a sword.

There are also some other leads that I'm checking in works not mentioned above, but it's late here and I don't think I have the mental stamina to read much Old Norse right now. But we do have a possibility of "blood grooves" in Old Norse.

[Hadrian Coffin]

Hello, HAPPY 2009
I put no weight in the "blood groove" theory. You here it all the time, one of the people that taught me to smith used to say that "fullers were designed for knives so that after you kill an animal like a deer you can stick the knife in for a couple of hours and let all the blood drain out into the ground" honestly, why would you even want to do that? I used to try to explain that it was to lighten and strengthen the blade but he would never listen. Another Civil War reenactor I know wold insist that without the fuller all the blood pressure and muscle contraction would keep a blade permanently stuck in a human body...

Viking and Early Medieval blades (type X) have long fullers and are designed primarily for cutting. Many thrust oriented blades (small swords, gladii, estocs, rapiers, type XVIII/XVIIIb thin bladed longswords) have diamond cross-sections.
One plausible reason the viking blades had fullers is that if you forge (at least the way I do it) out the pattern welded center and then weld on the steel cutting edges a fuller(groove) is naturally formed and only enhanced by more forging and grinding. One non-pattern welded viking sword had a center of iron with welded on cutting edges of steel.

As to the bayonets which I know far less about. I have in my collection an original Russian bayonet (the style is similar to an American Civil War era bayonet) with a cross-section that is a perfect cross/sideways X/lowercase T. I heard (and it sounds highly unlikely so it may be wrong, remember not my area of expertise) that after the Conference of Vienna this design (cross-section) was considered "illegal" or a war crime to use, because the wound it created was so difficult to heal.
Best,
Hadrian

[Hadrian Coffin]

The bayonet goes to a WWI Russian Mossin-Nagant and is a spike bayonet with a quadrilateral cross section "+"

[Adam Smith]

Fullering is a blacksmith term that means to thin and spread the material being forged. I believe The central fuller in a sword was used to conserve iron. By fullering the billet or bar you could make a longer broader sword from less iron, rather than strengthen it actually thins and weakens the blade at the center. The broad thin blades however had strength across the edges and were effectively used as slashing swords. Theories about blood letting or suction etc are mor than likely misconceptions. Fullers on later baskethilt swords or similar seem to of been made by stock removal and may have
been intended lighten and add esthetic appeal at the same time. Fullers on modern knives seem to serve no purpose and are probably just decorative.

[Robin Palmer]

Mr stepp

Reference the matter of suction I personally have not had to experience the problem but I have known several old soldiers who have. If it is caused by suction or not is a moot point one I am not qualified but I have read numerous references to it to many for it to be fiction. I do not recall the mans name but the officer who was in charge of intellegence for Lawrence of Arabia wrote a fascinating book of his own life. He served in Kenya in the late 1800s and had reason to use bayonet in battle. I quote him. 'The bayonet goes into a body with ease but is the very devil to get out'. Which is why the British army bayonet drill included the instructions thrust twist and withdraw.

As to the term blood groove as I understand it is modern and originated in the army / armys probably some sargents answer to a recruits question whats the groove for a theory I cannot prove but it is as good as any. On the fullers ???? on bayonets I go with echonomy most British ones were stamped in by presses they may also have a cosmetic value. As was stated many are simply a single line ground down blade it should be remembered that bayonet designers had two intentions one to produce a stabbing / cutting weapon. The second was to make it as intimidating as possible to the enemy. It is fact that in a vast percentage of cases troops rarely stood around to meet a bayonet charge. I read somewhere that a union surgeon during the civil war stated he did not see a single bayonet wound in three years of fighting.

Yours bob palmer

[Xan Stepp]

Mr. Palmer,
Thanks a lot for your contribution, a solid documented account of a bayonet getting stuck is something significant. I still don't think that suction could cause a blade blade to stick, but there are plenty of other things that could make it stick, many of which could be resolved by twisting. But it does seriously make me wonder if this twisting may be another function of the fuller. It may make the blade stronger against a twisting motion and even cause more damage while twisted. However, even though I have a background in physics, this is more of a structural engineering problem, so if there is anyone out there who could make a more solid contribution that would great.

I am still looking for more solid Old Norse or Old English evidence for the term blood groove, but I personally think it is extremely likely that fullers have been called blood grooves for a while, simply because channeling blood would be one of the most obvious features of a fuller (and frankly just sounds cooler), and for this reason the term stuck. I'll post more if/when I find out more.

[Robin Palmer]

Mr Stepp

I have heard it said that the suction is caused by a difference between the internal and external pressures I am not sure if this is so but it is possible. Somebody on this post mentioned the fact that blood pressure is well over atmospheric the key is that blood is in a closed system the body cavity itself may well not be pressurized so to speak. If not then there would be a tendency for flesh to suck in round blade. hence problem add muscles which may well clamp round blades.

It is fact that bladed bayonets were a rare before the 1800s. Prior to 1801the British armies standard bayonet was the triangular bladed socket bayonet the baker was issued with a sword bayonet. Over the next hundred years the army issued a variety of sword bayonets but the socket remained the standard right up to 1895 Martini Henry. I believe the US army was the same as were others. I believe the term is modern as all old references I have seen refer to fullers. I would be interested to learn if anyone could confirm if the term has been traditionally used in relation to knives. I make weapons and I never use the term blood groove. It would be interesting to see if the fuller was used. I have to admit that when I use them on knives it is as much for asthetics as practical a well excecuted figured fuller can add a lot to the appearance of a blade.

[Xan Stepp]

[Robin Palmer]

Mr Stepp

I have to admit the references of fullers on bayonets are largly fairly modern references which use the correct technical term not blood groove these include several Victorian descriptions of bayonets. The term blood groove in my experience appears to be a term used by army and people who have limited technical knowledge and quote what they hear other people call it. Blood groove or blood channel sounds more gruesome and impressive than fuller.

I do not doubt for a second your maths are correct but I am afraid you lost me before you started. All I can add is a thought flesh is a flexible substance by design Plus in my experience even very minor differences in pressure can make huge differences under the right circumstances.

One other thought just struck me about pressure trying to force blade out once blade is in the pressure on the blade would be along the length of the wound track very little would be pushing end of blade. This would include the undamaged flesh around the wound which still had full blood pressure and would squeeze blade.

If I come across any more references which will help you I will post them for you I apologize for digressing from the original post

Yours R Palmer

[Xan Stepp]

[Robin Palmer]

Mr Stepp

On your last point I have no idear the T shape blade appears on Kyber knives and several french bayonets the grats is one it's purpose obvious to strengthen the blade. I am not sure if it has a specific name I believe that a form of ribbing along the back of the swords is refered to as pipe back. The X shape is to my knowledge fairly modern the french lebel was the first I know made of round rod run into a cutter and the grooves cut cheap and simple the Russians used the same type. The germans called the lebel the devils knitting needle the blade was was one of the first deliberatly designed to inflict a wound which would not heal properly. I heard a story that german army doctors would treat wounds by turning the puncture into a cut which would heal the stelleto had the same problem neat round holes apparantly do not heal well for some reason. I doubt the style has a name.

Interestingly I am not sure if the Lebel had the jamming problem or the older socket bayonets it seems to have been confined to sword bayonets. If so then it is possible the surface area of the blade may have a bearing on the matter thin round or narrow triangular blades have less surface area.

Yours Bob Palmer

[Hadrian Coffin]

Thought you might find this partial passage from Cassiodorus secretary to Emperor Theodoric

"You have sent us swords capable even of cutting through armour. They are more precious for the iron of which they are made then for the gold that enriches them.........Their perfectly formed edges are so regular one would believe they were fashioned with a file rather than hammered in the forge. The admirably hollowed middle part of their blades seems to be veined and patterned."

As you can see he calls the fuller simply a "hollowed middle part of the blade"

[Xan Stepp]

Hadrian,
That's great, and that would have slipped by me. Would you mind passing on the full citation information? I want to see what it says in Latin and see if there has been any commentary on it in Latin scholarship.

[Alex Spreier]

Just as a quick note:

SPADA II has an article called "Medical Reality of Historical Wounds", very informative. While I don't remember if it covers "blood grooves" it does show numerous historical techniques / wounds and then gives modern equivalents.

Also, I have a friend who is a Paramedic-in-training, I had him ask his instructors about the suction thing. They all said they have never encountered it and that they all find it hard to believe.

Just my two cents.

[Jean Thibodeau]

The whole " Blood groove " thing I think came from some ignorant source guessing at their use or some marketing hype of a bayonet manufacturer or " propaganda " like " The Barbaric enemy " is so cruel as to use blood grooves in his blade and thus deserves our contempt ! Same thing with the saw back bayonets that were mostly there to use as tools by combat engineers but where the " cruel " look made soldiers on the receiving side likely to execute out of hand an enemy caught with one.

I can also see this term coming out of some news paper guy asking a soldier or sergeant about the grooves in the blade and being told they were blood grooves rather than the guy admitting that he didn't have a clue why they where there.

Often repeated misinformation becoming accepted as true like the old Knight couldn't get up if they fell down or needed a crane to get how their horses ? Could be one of those quaint " Victorian " notions in old dusty books.

( Note: Or later WWI or WWII era misinformation ? )

[Paul Kenworthy]

It appears that the term blood groove is only about 100 years old. The term fuller as a name for a groove is only about 50 years older than that.

The term fuller derives from the tool used to make it. A fuller is a smithing tool that is held against the work and struck with a hammer. It has a metal head with an eye in it for a handle. The face is shaped to make whatever kind of dent you want in the work and the back is flat where you strike it. It is similar to a hot chisel except its purpose is to shape the work instead of cut through it. Its advantage over a hammer is that you can position it on the work before striking it, making it much easier to be accurate. If you want to make matching grooves on both sides of a piece, you join two fullers together with a spring; one facing up and the other facing down. This is called a spring fuller, for obvious reasons. You place the heated work between the two faces and hit the top one with a hammer. The result will be matching dents in the top and bottom of the work.

Technically a groove is only a fuller if it made with a fuller. If it is made with a chisel or by grinding, it is just a groove.

Bayonets underwent four major changes of form as they evolved over the centuries. The first bayonets were knives that had a specially shaped handle that could fit down the barrel of a musket. They are termed “plug” bayonets to distinguish them from later forms and they usually had diamond cross sections. They were never very popular because you could not load or fire the musket with the bayonet fixed.

The second form came to be known as the “socket” bayonet because it had a socket that fit around the outside of the barrel and offset the blade out of the line of the bore so that the musket could be loaded and fired with the bayonet fixed. This weapon was a substitute for the pike and was both an anti-cavalry weapon and an anti-personnel weapon. The blades of socket bayonets are usually triangular in cross-section and frequently have grooves in the faces. The US Army in the 19th century called these grooves “flutes.” The two on the back faces (faces away from the bore) were forged in with trip hammers, and the one on the front face was ground in.

The nomenclature for US Army socket bayonet for the Model 1855 rifle musket can be found in the 1862 edition of the Ordnance Manual online at Google Books:

http://books.google.com/books?id=dKlEAAAAIAAJ...#PPA177,M1

They were triangular because they were used like a small pike, not because they made a more deadly wound. Anyone who has actually seen people or animals stabbed knows that unless you are lucky enough to hit an especially critical spot, the person isn’t going down immediately. The argument about whether thrust or cuts are more debilitating in combat has been going on for millennia and we’re not going to solve it here. The important point is that armourers weren’t shaping bayonets to make the wounds less likely to heal. No ordnance officer cared what happened in the aid station 3 days after the battle. The triangular shape makes a practical anti-cavalry weapon that stands up well to the rigors of campaigning.

The third form of bayonet was the “sword” or “sabre” bayonet. These were a result of the introduction of short-barreled rifled firearms designed to compliment light-infantry skirmish tactics at the beginning of the 19th century. Rifles were too short to be used effectively like pikes and light infantry normally fought in dispersed formations that weren’t suited to massed bayonet drills. These bayonets could be used like infantry swords when off the rifle or like long swords when on it. 19th century bayonet fencing manuals frequently have two sections: one to teach the thrusting style appropriate to the socket bayonet and one to teach the slashing style appropriate to the sword bayonet.

The nomenclature for the US Army sword bayonet for the Model 1885 rifle is at:

http://books.google.com/books?id=dKlEAAAAIAAJ...#PPA179,M1

The last form of the bayonet is the knife style introduced at the end of the 19th-century. This is the style most people are familiar with. The idea here was to make something that could serve multiple purposes. These come in a million sizes and shapes just like knives do. Bayonets had almost gone out of use when soldiers rediscovered the utility of the bayonet as a trench fighting weapon. Bayonets were especially popular in night raids in WWI because they have no report and no muzzle flash. This style has been controversial from the start with some armies arguing that it is not possible to make something which is simultaneously a good utility knife, a good fighting knife, and a good bayonet. For example, the French army continued to use a thrusting-only style of bayonet on the Lebel and the MAS MLE 1936.

The utility of the bayonet in general has been a hot topic of debate among professionals for at least the last 150 years. American authors frequently mention the Surgeon General reports from the American Civil War as evidence that they were, in fact, rarely used. However, Lt John Bigelow of the 10th US Cavalry published an interesting review of those reports in the Journal of the Military Service Institute in 1888 which showed that the categorization of wounds was part of the problem. Surgeons only listed bayonet or saber wounds if they were sure of the cause of the wound. Those accounted for something like 1 in every 143 wounds reported. However, if you include all wounds listed as Puncture, Incised or Contused, the frequency jumps to 1 in 10. Those may include shovels, axes, bowie knives, table forks, and pointy sticks for all we know, but it does indicate that hand to hand combat was much more common than previously thought; and if that is true then it is a good idea to equip and train soldiers for it.

Regarding bayonets sticking in wounds, I have never seen a period source (and my collection has over 600 manuals) mention blood or suction. Lots of sources mention bayonets or swords sticking, but they all refer to bones or equipment. WWI manuals simply recommend pulling the trigger to free a stuck bayonet. 19th century French bayonet manuals mention rotating the piece, but on the thrust as a way of increasing force, not on the withdrawal as a way of freeing a stuck bayonet.

US army swords during the American Civil War typically had two grooves, one wide and one narrow. These were all copied from French designs.

The nomenclature for swords can be found starting at:

http://books.google.com/books?id=dKlEAAAAIAAJ...#PPA222,M1

The US army had heavy cavalry swords, light cavalry swords, light artillery swords, foot artillery swords, NCO swords, musician’s swords, and a host of officer’s swords, but not a single “fuller” or “blood grove.”

Best Regards,

Paul

[Robin Palmer]

Hi Paul.

I read your post with interest I do have one issue fuller tools have been around since men began forging iron weapons as far as I am aware they have always been called that I am perfectly happy to be proved wrong. But pending definitive proof they were called something else pre 1750 I will reserve right to believe they have always been called fullers and grooves made by them were called fullers.

Hadrian quoted Cassiodorus as describing a hollow middle part of swords. I would point out that even today outside the black smiths trade and weapon scholars the term fuller as we are using it is almost unknown. One has to remember that for long periods the blacksmiths and weapon makers arts were both jealously guarded secrets and in many cases viewed as almost black arts. It should be no surprise that Cassiodorus was not familiar with the correct term. I feel that stating a term was not used simply because it does not appear in manuscripts written by people with no knowledge of black smithing or weapon making is a little bit of a stretch.

As an ex soldier I can testify that most soldiers have little interest in non essential information the correct term for the groove on a blade is not something they need to know only does the bloody thing do it's job properly. historically an alarming number of bayonet designs have proved less than brilliant in action. In many cases due to being designed for one war and being used in one the designers didn't plan for. During the first war the French shortened their lebel bayonets to 16'' in an attempt to make them handier in action. A problem exasabated by the length of the lebel rifle the british found the 22'' 1904 to long but the SMLE was six inches shorter and the problem was less extreme.

Lastly I have to disagree with comment on ordnance officers not caring about the effects of weapons in fact field officers have nothing to do with design of weapons only issuing what they are given. Higher ranks would send reports to HQ to say the new bayonet is a great success or a bloody disaster. Others higher up in the food chain would have a lot of interest in making sure weapons work including their long term effect. I do agree that pre 1850s there was a far less scientific approach to weapon design if it worked great if not find another. Post 1850 the designers were rather more thougher and scientific helped in a large part by developing knowledge of metals and medical sciences. The lebel was designed and tested on animals specifically to design a weapon which would inflict wounds which would not heal properly. The modern Chinese army bayonet is designed using the same system by the time the army see a weapon the work has already been done by people who will never have to use or face them. The Colt 1911.45 was the result of the abject failiour of the .38 revolver in the Phillipenes. The testing involved comparison tests of various cartridges from .38 to .50 firing at sheep wearing army great coats alive and dead plus several medical school cavarders.

Yours Bob Palmer

[Craig Johnson]

Hi Robin

I would have agreed with you prior to the beginning of this thread but as Michelle found the word "fuller" is pretty clear and recent in its development.

[Douglas S]

My best guess is that the use of the term in modern English parlance appeared in WWII fighting manuals such as John Styers' Cold Steel or Fairbains' Get Tough.