[J.D. Crawford]

There are two ways of looking at this.

One is that, as stated above, 'real' swords were never perfect either. Especially after they were used a few times. I am a perfectionist myself so it took a few sword purchases to realize that they are never perfect and it is their very imperfections that make them unique. But one has to draw the line somewhere. There are certain things I can now tolerate (generally those that do not affect function) and others I can't (like loose furniture and bad blade harmonics).

However there is another way to look at it. These here may be minor flaws but the consumer has the right to have high expectations when buying on the high end of the range. $1400 is a lot of money for most people.

I have seen people provide withering reviews on similarly flawed items at a fraction of this cost, often adding that this is what you get when you go cheap. In reading these reviews I have been reminded of a Psychology experiment that we studied in university. This was more than 20 years ago so my memory is vague, but basically two groups of subjects received the same reward but one group had to work much harder for it than the other. The harder working group judged the reward to be worth more.

So I think you can divide people into two groups here in their subjective reaction - one that says "I paid a lot for this, so it better be perfect" and one that says "I paid a lot for it, so it must have been worth it despite the imperfections".

Fortunately many of us live in a society where we can choose what works for us as individuals.

(Heh heh, that came out a lot more philosophical than I meant it to be...that's what happens when you get too much time off for the holidays).

[Chad Arnow]

I agree about the need for drawing a line somewhere. Minor imperfections resulting from hand-crafting are acceptable to me, but there is no hard definition as to what that means.

Imperfections resulting from sloppiness/poor craftsmanship and/or damage are not. A few pits in hilt furniture wouldn't bother me, but large ones that probably should have resulted in the wax and/or casting being scrapped would.

A nicked blade is not something I'd be willing to accept in a new sword either. That's damage. While period swords and modern working swords acquire(d) that damage/character honestly, a new sword should be free of those things so the sword can come by its character and story (dings, nicks, etc.) at the hands of its owner.

[Adam Smith]

The flaws on your sword are completely unacceptable, you are absolutely justified in returning it. The sum of $1400.00 is extremely high for a blade that is made by a milling machine and attached to cheap investment cast furniture. why should you start sanding and polishing after paying ONE THOUSAND FOUR HUNDRED DOLLARS. This is an example of extremely poor quality control, it should never of been sent to you in that condition.

[Chad Arnow]

Casting furniture does not equal cheap. In fact, I'd wager it's the best way to consistently make furniture with complex historical shapes. The blade is machined, but finished by hand. Again, how else will you consistently get historical blade geometries?

If the swords were made fully by hand forging and finish grinding, they would take longer and be much more expensive.

I've owned or handled basically all of the major production brands and many of the custom ones. Albion is producing historical shapes that most others miss. Their production methods are necessary to ensure consistency. If they stopped casting and machining, not only would they take longer and cost more, but they consistency in the end product would vary widely. Machines are necessary to ensure a consistent end result in a production environment.

I agree that some of the described issues shouldn't be there and returning it seems justified. I think he got a lemon. But I think some of Adam's criticisms are too harsh in my own personal opinion.

[Adam Smith]

Chad

You consider my critizisem much to hard , but perhaps you should consider yourself much to forgiving. Take a good look at the representative photos of the BARON or any other sword on their site. You will see no pits, nicks, stains or dents of any kind. Mathew being an enthusiest of arms and armour like the rest of us viewed these photos and decided that one day he just had to own this perticular piece. He may of waited a long time, worked very hard and perhaps even sacrificed another important purchase so that he could purchase this sword.

YES CASTING IS CHEAP, THAT IS WHY IT WAS CONCIEVED!


The pittings,dent, and nick in mathew's sword require to much stock removal to be corrected without altering its lines. From the description it sound like this sword was a reject but sent to him anyway. In my "harsh" opinion Mathew has lost a lot of money in this deal.

[Paul Watson]

To state that

"The sum of $1400.00 is extremely high for a blade that is made by a milling machine and attached to cheap investment cast furniture. why should you start sanding and polishing after paying ONE THOUSAND FOUR HUNDRED DOLLARS."

is misrepresenting the cost of the work undertaken by Albion. Several hundred dollars of that sum has nothing to do with them. I do not say that my Machiavelli cost me NZ$1,700 from Albion because it did not. Albion charged me US$944 +US$25 for a custom grip colour. The rest of the cost is accociated with shippping, the exchange rate and local taxes.

I don't want to get into the manufacturing process argument because that could be a completely different thread, but as far as a means to an end is concerned, I agree with Chad in that it allows Albion to produce thousands of swords true to various historical types in handling and appearaance. Furthernore I can relate to countering the argument about them needing to be cheap because they are machined blades as I work in the architectural field and many people use the flawed argument that the drawings are done on computer so all I have to do is click a couple of buttons to change things. In Albions case you can argue all the follwing facts. Machine, computer hardware and software costs, ongoing maintenance and upgrades for machines, computer hardware and software, training for use of each, programming and design for blades. The gear they use to produce the blades is not cheap and they still take a considerable amount of skill and training to utilise correctly so why should their swords be cheap?

By all accounts as far as any flaws are concerned, if someone is not happy with a sword send it back and Albion will fix it.

[Chad Arnow]

[John Gnaegy]

Maybe we should wait until pictures are posted before discussing this further. The size of the imperfections is critical in determining whether it's normal variation or a flaw.

[JE Sarge]

[Matthew R.]

I thank you all for your opinions in this matter, they have been most helpful.

All the pictures, unfortunately, are on my sister's camera and I was unable to get them onto my computer before she went back home after the holidays.

Of course the $1400 included shipping, exchange, taxes and brokerage fees but it is still a high cost nonetheless, especially for those who have been waiting and saving for a long time.

I agree with Adam's statement that the swords displayed on Albion's website are flawless. To the first-time sword-buyer like myself, I suppose I expected my sword to look just like that. It is akin to looking at a Big Mac on the McDonald's menu and assuming yours will appear the same, and we all know this is never the case. The only difference is that a Big Mac does not cost $1,000. Perhaps a disclaimer is necessary saying that some swords may contain imperfections which are normal. Furthermore, almost all businesses are guilty of misrepresenting their product(s) so the criticism should not fall solely on Albion's shoulders. In Albion's case I don't think they misrepresent their product at all, I just think they might need to be more wary of the sword amateurs who are not aware these things are normal.

In my case, I still feel the sum of the imperfections is not normal, especially the chip on the blade which, admittedly, is small, but the size in this case is negligible to me given that I did not do it nor am I content to fix it.

To give an update, Mike agreed with me that the flaws were unacceptable (his words) and that I should send it back so he can get it exchanged. I sent him another E-mail asking who is to pay for the shipping and I await a response following the holidays.

The quality of the sword itself does not anger me and, despite these flaws, it is still an amazing product. I whole heartily agree with Chad in that it is how Albion responds to this issue that will dictate my mood and, given Mike's response, I have no reason to feel angry.

[Joe Fults]

So the vendor agrees it should come back when they are finally asked about the situation. Sounds to me like the issue is on its way to getting resolved.

[Jean Thibodeau]

Oh, I would define a casting as " cheap " not by how much it cost the manufacturer to make but by how well it duplicates the period furniture and if it's structurally sound i.e. as robust and resistant to damage as one forged or ground from stock.

Cheap means to me " low quality " when it is supposed to be a knock on the product !

I don't personally care how the sword is produced, I only care that the final product looks and functions as it should.
( Aesthetics, handling and durability ).

I would make an exception for this if one is paying for and wanting a piece made using period methods and materials in a custom piece, but such a piece would cost an arm and a leg if made by a top maker. ( The collecting objective being different than being content with form and function being accurate. The final product using modern steels is probably better in many cases than the period originals using steels of very variable quality within the same piece
http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_bladehardness.html ).

In the specific case of the sword in question QC was obviously a problem in this case and Albion is taking care of it.
( If shipping charges will be fully covered by Albion in a way that won't cost Matthew another penny I'm not sure about and it would have been better for the sword to have been O.K. , but overall I think they will cover most of the costs ).

[Adam Smith]

Matthew

You are an honorable customer that paid a very high price up front and only expectected what was promised. the misrepresentation should be explained by those responsible and never by you. Very many years ago I paid very high and equivelent prices for swords that where less than acceptable. To return them in my case would of cost way too much, I now realize that the sellers new this.

If the representation is flawless then the piece delivered should be the same.

[Joe Fults]

I cannot believe I'm going to chime in as an advocate for the vendor here, but I am because I of some of the stuff being thrown from the peanut gallery. Misrepresentation?

Seriously?

Fine, if you really believe the vendor's intent was to deceive. However, given the fairly large volume of products shipped by the vendor in question, and the scarcity of complaints like this (it comes up but rarely), I highly doubt they are intentionally trying to mislead anybody.

Mistakes can happen. Remedy should be sought by the customer and given by the vendor. It sounds like Matt and the vendor are trying to reach an accommodation. If they fail to come to an arrangement, then crucify the vendor all you like. Until then, calling this a deception is making a pointed accusation. It has the potential to damage the producer's reputation and their business without giving them a fair chance to make things right. To do this with no first hand experience of the problem in question, IMHO, is poor sportsmanship.

[Nathan Robinson]

[Matthew R.]

[J Anstey]

... I am pretty sure that Matthew will need to pay the shipping both sides to have his sword fixed as this is their policy for returns.

Last year I had a problem with a sword from Albion and this cost $3200 plus shipping to Australia. The shipping costs were very expensive for me. The repair or new parts were perfect and my sword hangs proudly on the wall. The extra costs and hassles at the time did cause me a lot of pain - but are now pretty much forgotten as I have a beautiful piece that is no longer available.

I have no doubt whatsoever that Matthew's sword will be repaired or replaced and the result will be as close to a flawless sword as is humanly possible and done in a short period of time.

Whilst I don't agree with having to pay more money in order to get what you should have had in the first place - the joy of having what you want will replace the pain of the extra dollars in the future.

Hope it goes well for you.

Cheers

Jason

[Matthew R.]

Hi all,

I just wanted to update everyone on the situation.

After I paid one-way shipping, Albion sent me a brand new Baron. It arrived about a month after I started this thread. I would have left an update sooner except that it is the first time I have been home to actually look at the sword. I would like to thank Mike Sigman for being so helpful in this process.

The sword itself is near-flawless, save for one small thing which, to a normal person, probably wouldn't matter, but to me, a crazy perfectionist, it is bothersome.

If I place the sword flat side down, and tap the guard with the inside knuckle of my hand causing the blade to shake, there is a "clang" sound. It is only one sound, not like a continuous rattle suggesting the blade is loose. In fact, the blade seems to be quite secure in the grip. This only happens on one side of the blade as well, not the other. And it does not happen when I move the blade side to side or up and down with its edge. it does happen, however, if I move the blade up and down or side to side with the flat part of it.

Having put my ear to the guard, it sounds like the blade is smacking against the guard. Having owned and held other swords, this has never happened to me before, unless it was one of those cheap bldaes. It seems small, but I am a perfectionist. However, I don't expect Albion to be perfectionists so this is something I would like to be able to fix myself. Does anyone have any suggests regarding how to fix this? Is this something that is common? Should I risk trying to fix it?

Thanks in adance for the help.

[JE Sarge]

I don't mind minor pitting, casting/polish flaws, light rust, etc, because these are things that I can easily correct in my shop - but when it comes to a problem like you are having, I think I'd might write their customer service again and ask their advice on the matter.

[Jean Thibodeau]