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G Ezell
Industry Professional
Location: North Alabama Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 235
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 Posted: Wed 31 Dec, 2008 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| Robert P. Wimmers wrote: |
Ha, so would that imply that all those "short" (13 inch) broken back replica's with paralell sides are basicly not historicly correct ??
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There is quite a bit of overlap between styles of saxes, and it sometimes seems there are more atypical blades than typical ones. Those bladesmiths were a creative bunch. One thing I've learned about saxes is never say never...
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G Ezell
Industry Professional
Location: North Alabama Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Wed 31 Dec, 2008 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| Robert P. Wimmers wrote: | Hi All!
Broken back saxes are not shown in the typology, are these only found in Britain?
This a most instructive thread, by the way! Thanks all!!! |
This is another typology, from 'Ancient Weapons of Britain' that has the broken back types.
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Robert P. Wimmers
Industry Professional
Location: Dieren, The Netherlands Joined: 24 Nov 2008
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Wed 31 Dec, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, guys!
I recon I will be doing mostly Frankisch types, by the looks of it. I did finish my broken back blade yesterday, so now it's down to the polishing. I wonder what the max grit these ancient smith used for a "household seax" . I want to avoid the "over polished" look, so think I will go from 60 to 120 sandpaper and see how that turns out. That is after the filing, off course. Any thoughts?
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 02 Jan, 2009 12:09 am Post subject: |
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| Robert P. Wimmers wrote: | | Ha, so would that imply that all those "short" (13 inch) broken back replica's with paralell sides are basicly not historicly correct ?? |
Yeah, and they generally don't have the right hilts either.
| Quote: | | I wonder how early saxmakers got a mirror polish on their blades. I am making some seax presently, using old tool steel, forge and files. I suppose using stones? to plane down the small grooves the files leave was an option. |
Theophilus describes scrapers, burnishers, certain polishing stones and powders (finely ground powder from pottery, chalk, charcoal dust) polishing methods, though that's for finishing silver. But it's possible they used similar things on weapons. I recall that some old saga or something mentioned that some swords were filed and polished so well that one could count the hairs in the beard on it. So mirror polishes they were able to achieve.
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Hadrian Coffin
Industry Professional
Location: Oxford, England Joined: 03 Apr 2008
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Tue 06 Jan, 2009 11:41 am Post subject: |
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Here is a partial passage from Cassiodorus secretary to Emperor Theodoric A.D.~520
"You have sent us swords capable even of cutting through armour. They are more precious for the iron of which they are made then for the gold that enriches them; with their strikingly perfect polish, they shine so that they reflect the face of whoever looks at them. Their perfectly formed edges......"
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Robert P. Wimmers
Industry Professional
Location: Dieren, The Netherlands Joined: 24 Nov 2008
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Tue 06 Jan, 2009 11:49 am Post subject: |
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Oeps, forgot to put on the mirror polish to reflect the faces ......
Nah, that was design, as this is a very servicable knife which got a 120 grit sanding as a finish. Still, I may just do a mirror polish on the seax I am trying to pound out of a square piece of stock at present. Hard work, I tell you, even using mild steel. Will have to cast the pommel if I shape it after the Nijmegen find, never done that, either, so should be fun .... Then again, the original pommel looks like iron, so may have to shape it by forge and file. Need some additional data, wonder in which museum it is, can't remenber seeing it at the Valkhof.
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 07 Jan, 2009 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| Robert P. Wimmers wrote: | Oeps, forgot to put on the mirror polish to reflect the faces ......
Nah, that was design, as this is a very servicable knife which got a 120 grit sanding as a finish. Still, I may just do a mirror polish on the seax I am trying to pound out of a square piece of stock at present. Hard work, I tell you, even using mild steel. Will have to cast the pommel if I shape it after the Nijmegen find, never done that, either, so should be fun .... Then again, the original pommel looks like iron, so may have to shape it by forge and file. Need some additional data, wonder in which museum it is, can't remenber seeing it at the Valkhof. |
It's in the Rijksmuseum of Oudheden, Leiden (I live a few hundred meters from it). You can find photos of it in my photo pages. The blade also has engraved braided bands or snakes, which is typical for this style of sax.
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Robert P. Wimmers
Industry Professional
Location: Dieren, The Netherlands Joined: 24 Nov 2008
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Wed 07 Jan, 2009 1:25 am Post subject: |
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Ah yes, found them, Thanks! Iron pommel it is. How were these attached, by the way? Peened tang projecting through the pommel or a pin through the end of it?? As to length, I guestimate the blade to be about 45 cm, if the grip is 15. Is there a discription of that find listed somewhere? I wish I knew how big the little cube with the number on it is. Looks like 1.5 to 2 cm square .... That ridge will be the most difficult to forge, but the foto's show it's construction well, so there is a challenge! Unless of course it is an added ring which slips over the tang and has been corroded in place to make it seem like it is one piece. Any thoughts on that: ring or forged out of one piece?
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 07 Jan, 2009 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| Robert P. Wimmers wrote: | | Ah yes, found them, Thanks! Iron pommel it is. How were these attached, by the way? Peened tang projecting through the pommel or a pin through the end of it?? |
It's peened.
| Quote: | | As to length, I guestimate the blade to be about 45 cm, if the grip is 15. |
It's 58.8cm in length, so that should be about right.
| Quote: | | Is there a discription of that find listed somewhere? |
Probably, but finding it is the trick:) You can find information on it on http://www.geheugenvannederland.nl.
| Quote: | | I wish I knew how big the little cube with the number on it is. Looks like 1.5 to 2 cm square .... That ridge will be the most difficult to forge, but the foto's show it's construction well, so there is a challenge! Unless of course it is an added ring which slips over the tang and has been corroded in place to make it seem like it is one piece. Any thoughts on that: ring or forged out of one piece? |
You mean the bolster? That's a seperate piece that slides onto the tang.
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Dustin R. Reagan
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| Posted: Wed 07 Jan, 2009 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Jeroen Zuiderwijk wrote: |
It's in the Rijksmuseum of Oudheden, Leiden (I live a few hundred meters from it). You can find photos of it in my photo pages. The blade also has engraved braided bands or snakes, which is typical for this style of sax. |
Hi Jeroen,
Can you link to your photos page? You always post such great seax photos! I recall once, you posted a .zip file containing many photos as well as some great info. Do you have this posted somewhere as well?
Thanks, as always, for sharing your extensive knowledge on this subject.
Dustin
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Robert P. Wimmers
Industry Professional
Location: Dieren, The Netherlands Joined: 24 Nov 2008
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Wed 07 Jan, 2009 11:41 am Post subject: |
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I do mean the bolster, but it looked to have been forged with the blade as a kind of ring. Much relieved to learn the bolster was a seperate piece of iron, this makes life in the smithy a lot easier . Thanks for the length on that piece, I should be able to manage a blade that long in my small forge using mild steel. If I use high carbon, there is more danger of cracking the piece because of stress caused by forging an piece not hot enough in the periferal areas. Smithing is more then just hitting iron in the right direction, so I have discovered. The seax blades I am working on now are tool steel with the longest blade around 35 cm.
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
Industry Professional
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 08 Jan, 2009 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| Robert P. Wimmers wrote: | | I do mean the bolster, but it looked to have been forged with the blade as a kind of ring. Much relieved to learn the bolster was a seperate piece of iron, this makes life in the smithy a lot easier . Thanks for the length on that piece, I should be able to manage a blade that long in my small forge using mild steel. If I use high carbon, there is more danger of cracking the piece because of stress caused by forging an piece not hot enough in the periferal areas. Smithing is more then just hitting iron in the right direction, so I have discovered. The seax blades I am working on now are tool steel with the longest blade around 35 cm. |
It depends highly on the steel you're using, the forging temperatures etc. Keep in mind that higher carbon steels have to be worked at different temperatures them mild steel. However, if you used a simple medium carbon steel, there shouldn't be much noticable difference from mild (aside from it being a bit more stiff). What kind of tool steel are you using? If chisels f.e., they're often chrome vanadium steel, which is insanely hard even at forging temperatures.
Jeroen Zuiderwijk
- Bronze age living history in the Netherlands
- Barbarian metalworking
- Museum photos
- Zip-file with information about saxes
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Robert P. Wimmers
Industry Professional
Location: Dieren, The Netherlands Joined: 24 Nov 2008
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Thu 08 Jan, 2009 3:56 am Post subject: |
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I use good but ancient quality tool steel, as I recycle really old hedgecutterblades bought in French fleamarkets. Not much chrome in those, but it is still a nice stiff steel and requires (a lot) more force to forge then mild steel. There is some difference in quality, though, so I usualy spark test them before hand to determine how hard the steel is, to pick the best piece for the type of knife I want to make.
I am aware of the diffent tolerances in temperature and am carefull not to burn out the carbon. The thing about the long blades is the stress cased by the displacement when making the bevel. I have only cracked one blade that way so far, but that does make you accutely aware of the issue. There is a way around it, of course, and that is to work smaller area's in smaller steps of forging, as each reheating will relieve the stress built up. But then the whole thing takes a lot longer and chews coal. So I tend to stay on the cautious side and am not making large things like swords (yet). Now when using mild steel, this is much more tolerant, allows me a somewhat higher temperature (and thus also a longer temerature gradient through the blade) lessening stress problems. And that is the reason for using mild steel on the Nijmegen seax blade, that and wanting to make a large knife by drawing out the billet and all. I am still very much learning to forge, so try different techniques just for fun and to see how it works. Gives me a more authentic feeling as well, being able to shape a knife from a cluncky billet  .
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Dustin R. Reagan
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| Posted: Fri 09 Jan, 2009 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeroen Zuiderwijk wrote: | | I had it in my signature, which seems to have disappeared. Let's see if this works. |
Thank you.
A quick question. In your opinion, is the pommel of the 500-600AD Nijmegen sax forged in one piece, or is it a two piece pommel? If it is from one piece, would it be out of the question to reproduce a similar pommel in two pieces?
Thanks,
Dustin
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
Industry Professional
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G Ezell
Industry Professional
Location: North Alabama Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Thu 15 Jan, 2009 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Hadrian Coffin wrote: | | More pics I was running out of room on my last post... I can post more veiws on request |
This has been bugging me since you first posted.
Would you by any chance have any information on the 'ring-hilt wood hilt seax'? Location of find, estimated date, anything? I'm hoping it's not Roman, they do seem to have used that blade shape on occasion, but it just might be a brokeback sax...
the ferrules look very similar to the Aachen sax, as does the blade shape.
Thanks again for the images!
" I have found that it is very often the case that if you state some absolute rule of history, there will be an example, however extremely unusual, to break it."
Gabriel Lebec
https://www.facebook.com/relicforge
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
Industry Professional
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Hadrian Coffin
Industry Professional
Location: Oxford, England Joined: 03 Apr 2008
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Fri 16 Jan, 2009 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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I agree, it does look Roman. However it is Viking. The knife comes from a grave find in Norway. I will have to find the name of the place, because I cannot remember. I remember thinking at the time it looked more like a roman knife but it is not. The grave was in a field of graves most of which date to the viking period, the knife in question was found in a "ship-shaped" grave in conjunction with a few other viking age artifacts (including an urnes styled pin). The only possibility for it being Roman would be a viking using an antique knife. The purpose of the ring on this knife is assumed to be a "pull" to make the knife easier to draw from a scabbard.
Best,
Hadrian
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G Ezell
Industry Professional
Location: North Alabama Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Fri 16 Jan, 2009 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Hadrian Coffin wrote: |
I agree, it does look Roman. However it is Viking. The knife comes from a grave find in Norway. I will have to find the name of the place, because I cannot remember. I remember thinking at the time it looked more like a roman knife but it is not. The grave was in a field of graves most of which date to the viking period, the knife in question was found in a "ship-shaped" grave in conjunction with a few other viking age artifacts (including an urnes styled pin). The only possibility for it being Roman would be a viking using an antique knife. The purpose of the ring on this knife is assumed to be a "pull" to make the knife easier to draw from a scabbard.
Best,
Hadrian |
Thank you both. Interesting that it's Norwegian, I would have guessed Saxon from the blade shape. I've seen similar rings on other viking knives...
" I have found that it is very often the case that if you state some absolute rule of history, there will be an example, however extremely unusual, to break it."
Gabriel Lebec
https://www.facebook.com/relicforge
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