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Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Modern enhancements to medieval weaponry. Reply to topic
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
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PostPosted: Thu 04 Dec, 2008 7:04 am    Post subject: Re: Modern enhancements to medieval weaponry.         Reply with quote

Sean Manning wrote:
Could I have some references for that?
I don't have references for the cast iron filled furnaces., but I could ask around. I believe there are mentions of bit so cast iron in Tylecote's Prehistory of Metallurgy IIRC, but those are smaller pieces.

Quote:
All the academic sources I have read claim that Europeans couldn't consistently melt iron before the invention of the blast furnace and the finery (which removes carbon from cast iron to turn it into steel). This wouldn't be the first time that experiments proved historians wrong, but I'd at least like something to cite!
It's often written that it took f.e. watermill powered bellows allows furnaces to reach higher temperatures, but that's a myth. Bigger bellows doesn't mean higher temperature, just bigger furnaces using less manpower. The temperature depends on the fuel used, and doesn't really depend on scale. The minimum size furnace to get the maximum temperature out of charcoal is roughly 10-15cm.
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Chris Fields




Location: Tampa, Fl
Joined: 03 Aug 2008

Posts: 114

PostPosted: Thu 04 Dec, 2008 8:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Keep in mind modern motorcycle chains are built for a specific purpose. If you have ever missaligned a sprocket, you know you can pop links easily. I think if I built a flail like you have in mind, and I hit the head in the direction the chain does not bend, I could definitly pop links. That style chain is just not designed for that. Also, I would think, due to physics, that a fails power is taking from the fact that momentum can be built up in a circular swing, so you would not want to limit the chains degrees of motion to 2 dimensional.

I can think of 2 other modern advances to a fail if I were to make one. First, use a braided steel cable, instead of a chain. Steel cables have replaced chains in many applications due to being stronger and have more flexiblity, which I think would aid in a flail. I would also hollow out the head and fill it with a loose, highly dense sand, similar to how they make some impact hammers now a days. This allow a harder impact with less force, because the internal sand inertia makes the head "bounce" less on the impact.

Another modern advance could be better grip materials, or even designing a gun into the grip, lol. Actually, now that I think about it... you can make it so that the flail rope can extend on the "away" swing and contract on the "recovery" swing, this could give you more reach and more momentum on the strike, yet when returning, the rope could still be too short for the head to hit your hand.
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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posts: 856

PostPosted: Thu 04 Dec, 2008 8:40 am    Post subject: Re: Modern enhancements to medieval weaponry.         Reply with quote

Jeroen Zuiderwijk wrote:
Sean Manning wrote:
Could I have some references for that?
I don't have references for the cast iron filled furnaces., but I could ask around. I believe there are mentions of bit so cast iron in Tylecote's Prehistory of Metallurgy IIRC, but those are smaller pieces.

Quote:
All the academic sources I have read claim that Europeans couldn't consistently melt iron before the invention of the blast furnace and the finery (which removes carbon from cast iron to turn it into steel). This wouldn't be the first time that experiments proved historians wrong, but I'd at least like something to cite!
It's often written that it took f.e. watermill powered bellows allows furnaces to reach higher temperatures, but that's a myth. Bigger bellows doesn't mean higher temperature, just bigger furnaces using less manpower. The temperature depends on the fuel used, and doesn't really depend on scale. The minimum size furnace to get the maximum temperature out of charcoal is roughly 10-15cm.

I've also heard that taller chimneys on some African and Chinese furnaces helped create a draft to produce higher temperatures, and that larger furnaces (with a better surface-area-to-volume ratio) conserve heat better. I agree that some of the 'improved bloomeries' which were used in some regions could produce cast iron, but the question is whether a typical Iron Age or Early Medieval bloomery could.

I'll look up that Tylecote book- we have it at our university library. My major sources on medieval smelting are D.W. Crossley ed., Medieval Industry (1981) and various of Alan Williams' books and articles. But I've read half a dozen other things claiming that Europeans could not reliably make cast iron before the late middle ages.
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Leo Todeschini
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PostPosted: Thu 04 Dec, 2008 11:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In terms of redesigning an object to make it better; that is always tricky and historical objects more so.

In a dim and distant life I used to be a product designer and was asked to design four objects that would be radically different from anything that had gone before. An ice cream scoop, a corkscrew, a pair of scissors and an garlic press. The project was a killer but with some serious work I think we acheived it, but the comissioning company folded before they ever got to market, which was just as well because they were probably a waste of time regardless of what I thought.

The reason is simple. All these object have been in existence for hundreds of years and have had generations of development by hundreds of thousands of individuals, a great many more intelligent than me and yes I may have hit on some good ideas and I may have had some novel approaches, but in reality the chance of me improving to any great extent a simple object is very very slim. Think of redesigning a spade and coming up with a design that lasts for hundreds of years - not many designs acheive that.

The flail idea is like that. These people knew how to use them and how to make them, they knew what worked and what did not; countless thousands of people used them, developed them and made them and you or I sitting in my living room is not likely to improve much on it.

What we can improve are the simple aspects of materials such as metalurgy and perhaps a bit of finite element analysis in the tang/blade and tang/pommel intersections to eradicate inuse breakage at these points and maybe even provide edge chipping analysis to identify dangerous stress raising points if chips are too deep or dangerously shaped, but I doubt if in real terms in a real battle situation as individuals, with our lack of real context of how these were used, could we significantly improve on what went before.

I don't want to seem defeatist but I have had experience of trying to out do centuries and thousands of my forebears and threw a hell of a lot of money at it to boot and I doubt I acheived very much. You can tweak something, but until that change is evident in a couple of hundred years of examples of that object, I don't think you could hand on heart say it was improved.

Tod

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Darryl Aoki





Joined: 12 Oct 2006

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PostPosted: Thu 04 Dec, 2008 11:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chris Fields wrote:
Keep in mind modern motorcycle chains are built for a specific purpose. If you have ever missaligned a sprocket, you know you can pop links easily. I think if I built a flail like you have in mind, and I hit the head in the direction the chain does not bend, I could definitly pop links. That style chain is just not designed for that. Also, I would think, due to physics, that a fails power is taking from the fact that momentum can be built up in a circular swing, so you would not want to limit the chains degrees of motion to 2 dimensional.


Yep. If you're spinning something in a circle, you can build up energy with each cycle with a relatively small application of power per cycle; if you're swinging something back and forth, the most energy you're going to get out of a strike is however much you can apply with one acceleration cycle (one forward swing), and to get that to hit hard, you'll have to apply all that power at once. Which would be why medieval flails were designed as they were.

(Yes, I'm an engineer.)
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Dec, 2008 12:30 am    Post subject: Re: Modern enhancements to medieval weaponry.         Reply with quote

Sean Manning wrote:
I've also heard that taller chimneys on some African and Chinese furnaces helped create a draft to produce higher temperatures
The chimneys create natural draft, so you don't have to use bellows. But it's again a labour saving method on the bellowing, it doesn't increase the maximum temperature you can get out of the charcoal.

Quote:
and that larger furnaces (with a better surface-area-to-volume ratio) conserve heat better.
True, but that means they use less fuel to keep maintain the temperature.
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Dec, 2008 1:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Enhancing or improving on a design can mean many things. It could mean making things in a less costly way.
It has been the case time and time again during the development of the sword that a path has been chosen that arrives at somewhat the same functional quality with less effort or cost.

I do not think that this is the focus of the question, however.
To enhance the structural or functional qualities of a tool/weapon, you need to be familiar with its function and use. We are not as knowledgeable today in these matters as our predecessors were.
We can focus on small details like materials, their treatment, methods of manufacture or construction and make what we think is improvements. It is very probable that important aspects are overlooked in these improved designs, however.
Important design features might not only be how well the tool holds up to use, but also how easily it can be fixed if broken. It may not only be how strong the construction is but also what kind of precision it allows in manipulation.

Today we have a cult of progress and a strong belief in the robust. If it is made from space age materials and can survive incredible abuse, then it is clearly an improvement, right?
Still, such a product may well completely miss those aspects that make the tool functional in the first place and this would come from a lack of understanding of the original object. It is all to easy to get blinded by fancy stuff and impressive statistics.

There is a whole aspect of historical weapons, and specifically swords that is constantly overlooked.
You hear modern practitioners and makers express excitement and worry about strength and structural integrity. A bent blade or nicked edge is always seen as a shortcoming of the quality of the sword, not a shortcoming in skill of use or understanding of swordsmanship.
A sword takes skill and awareness to be used well. It takes more than solid manufacturing methods and high quality materials to make a sword. It is equally important that the design concept if sound. The only way to know that is to look at historical swords. That is where we must learn about what it takes if a length of sharp steel is to be called a sword.
This is a never ending study. There are always new things to be learned.

I do believe that it is possible to make good swords from modern materials and by contemporary techniques. Otherwise I would not be a sword smith in this day and age.
I even think it is possible to work from the design concept of historical sword types, but not include decorative or stylistic themes. The result would be a piece of contemporary work, a contemporary sword for contemporary swordsmen. I do not say it is an improvement of historical designs, but it may in the best case be a sword made according to the premises of the traditional sword, but expressed as an object of contemporary craft.

Not better, but in some aspects new and in a way making a historical tradition live on into our time.
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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Dec, 2008 9:10 am    Post subject: Re: Modern enhancements to medieval weaponry.         Reply with quote

Jeroen Zuiderwijk wrote:
Sean Manning wrote:
I've also heard that taller chimneys on some African and Chinese furnaces helped create a draft to produce higher temperatures
The chimneys create natural draft, so you don't have to use bellows. But it's again a labour saving method on the bellowing, it doesn't increase the maximum temperature you can get out of the charcoal.

Quote:
and that larger furnaces (with a better surface-area-to-volume ratio) conserve heat better.
True, but that means they use less fuel to keep maintain the temperature.

It looks like I was wrong. Tylecote's Early History Of Metallurgy in Europe points to some Roman cast iron artifacts, and references one experiment which produced cast iron in a large bloomery furnace by using extra charcoal. That plus what you say is enough for me. That means that the history of iron casting is just as complicated as the history of furnace design, but I can handle complexity. I'll have to finish reading his book.

Now I'll stop distracting people from the main topic of the thread!
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D. Bell




Location: New Zealand
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PostPosted: Sat 06 Dec, 2008 1:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Now that we've firmly established that a bike chain wouldn't be suitable for a flail, guess what I spotted while looking through my images. Laughing Out Loud
This was describes as South German, 1520-30.

Just to address something else that was mentioned earlier, flails did exist that used a hinge rather than a chain, although I don't have any images saved, and it may have been more common with agricultural flails than military flails.



 Attachment: 57.86 KB
Bikechain Flail.jpg


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Nicholas Kincurd





Joined: 24 Nov 2008

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PostPosted: Mon 08 Dec, 2008 11:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

D. Bell wrote:
Now that we've firmly established that a bike chain wouldn't be suitable for a flail, guess what I spotted while looking through my images. Laughing Out Loud
This was describes as South German, 1520-30.

Just to address something else that was mentioned earlier, flails did exist that used a hinge rather than a chain, although I don't have any images saved, and it may have been more common with agricultural flails than military flails.


Thank you, that is quite an amazing find. Naturally, it's German, like many of the more innovative Flails seem to be. As I stated in my original post, I didn't feel like the idea was entirely new, albeit, uncommon.

Although, there is an overbearing argument against that type of link's usefulness in battle, we at least know it was looked into, to the point of at least the construction of the weapon. Thanks again, this sort of thing is why I come here. myArmoury continues to be a great place for historical knowledge, no matter how obscure.

I realize that it would be more difficult to use and restrictive. It can't be something a typical flailer could switch to in a moment's notice comfortably.. That's just the nature of the flail though, there are already just so many variations.

Anyway, thanks again, for that bit of historical knowledge.
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Bryce Felperin




Location: San Jose, CA
Joined: 16 Feb 2006

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PostPosted: Mon 08 Dec, 2008 1:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just goes to show you that it is hard to come up with an original idea for an older product. Someone's almost always thought about the same thing and tinkered with it before. ;-)
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Nicholas Kincurd





Joined: 24 Nov 2008

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PostPosted: Tue 09 Dec, 2008 7:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, if it's in any way feasible with materials and resources of the time, it's probably been done.
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