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Ken Berry
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio Joined: 17 May 2008
Posts: 31
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 Posted: Sat 22 Nov, 2008 11:38 am Post subject: |
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I know its outside the timeframes you are researching but... in the American Revolution Deborah Sampson posed as a man and served in the continental army.
I read about to a siege in scotland in the medieval period where a woman referred to as the "black Agnes" commanded the castles garrison and participated in the fighting. I read this a long time ago and unfortunately do not remember any more details.
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Frances Perry
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 23 Nov, 2008 10:59 am Post subject: |
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Hi Nathan, and others – I’d be careful of that site – whilst it has a great deal of interesting items and pictures, the images themselves should be taken cautiously, especially when they depict biblical stories or ancient myths. For example, this one where a man in armour is being walked over by a woman in a dress - perhaps wishful thinking? I know I’ve worn a butterfly hennin (similar to that in the picture) and gown before, and all I can say is that she must have had a lucky shot with the lance!!
As I understand it, at least in medieval times, women were - in the majority - defenders of their own homes, and castles or cities under siege, rather than fighting in battles as one might term 'warriors'.
Women defending their castle with swords:
http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/results.asp?ima...chnum=0006
Women jousting (suicidal without armour!?!):
http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/results.asp?ima...chnum=0007
Though The Royal Armouries Yearbook 1997 (ISBN 1366-3925) has an article by Thom Richardson on The Bridport Muster Roll of 1457. These are the names of ordinary people who were called up to the army. 174 names on the list are legible, and 5 of these (2.9%) are women. Alis Hammel has her own jack, sword, buckler, salet, bow and arrows. Alis Gare has a bow and a coat of plates. "Condefer Wife" has bow, arrows, sword and buckler. Margaret Athyn and Sally Pens do not have any equipment listed, but overall 39% of the names on the list do not have any equipment listed.
In the War of the Roses (1459-1487) Queen Margaret became the Lancastrian leader (source - "British Battles" - Ken and Denise Guest - Harper Collins - 0-00-470968-3)
During the War of the Roses Lady Knyvet refused to surrender her castle to Sir Gilbert Debenham because her husband had left her in charge of its defence. (source - "British Battles" - Ken and Denise Guest - Harper Collins - 0-00-470968-3)
Margret Paston took charge of the defence of her home in her husband's absence during the Wars of the Roses, she asked him to send crossbows, poleaxes and iron spikes in a letter in 1448 - though it is unclear if she would be using these weapons for herself or for her household.
From "Treasure of the City of Ladies" by Christine de Pizan : "We have also said that she [the baroness] ought to have the heart of a man, that is, she ought to know how to use weapons and be familiar with everything that pertains to them, so that she may be ready to command her men if the need arises. She should know how to launch an attack or to defend against one."
The Burgundians (and most other European states) sometimes had women serving on gun crews . The gun captain was hired and given a fixed amount of money to provide a crew, so there was a tendency to use his own family so as to keep more of the money.
And an essay here: http://www.florilegium.org/files/COMBAT/Women-Battle-art.html
In terms of the Walpurgis image from the earliest fightbook - I.33 - currently in the Royal Armouries collection. The image depicts a lady called 'Walpurgis', who adopts the 'woman's guard'. Wagner and Hand comment that the prescence of the female image may suggest self defence for sister of the Church, or a training manual for judicial duals, which women were also expected to participate in, or finally as an illustration of 'The Woman's guard' - i.e. looking weak and defenceless when in fact you are not.
I have certainly also heard that I.33 may have been a training manual for the priesthood itself so it could defend itself from robbers and looters.
Noble men and women also had the right to trial by combat, and existing examples of fight manuals from Germany show that these fights were not only limited to man-against-man or woman-against-woman. The manuscript ascribed to Talhoffer (1467) has several plates depicting a fight between a man and a woman. However, as the image below indicates, to 'even the fight' the man was put into a pit up to his waist which he could not get out of, with a club, while the woman got to fight with a four to five pound weight on the end of a 'veil'.
To me, this indicates two things - firstly, that women were not forbidden from having fight training. Secondly, the fact that the man is effectively 'handicapped' indicates that medieval people felt that a man had a natural fighting advantage over a women.
Joan of Arc? Hmmmm wasn’t she supposed to be a figurehead or icon rather than a proper ‘warrior’ who went into the battles? Not sure about the history of her at all, but pretty sure she had armour as she was charged – among other things – of wearing male clothing (armour). At least that’s what I understand…
It certainly seems that there are numerous accounts of women doing ‘warrior-like’ deeds – if you count the term ‘warrior’ to mean literally: "a person engaged or experienced in warfare." Or figuratively: "a person who shows or has shown great vigor, courage, or aggressiveness, as in politics or athletics."
But for the main, it appears that women warriors have been noted in history because they are a curiosity or exception, and to be honest, when I read about warfare (albeit modern warfare) a la Richard Holmes and Lt. Dave Grossman, I – personally – am glad that I only keep my battle experience to the sparring hall, and the re-enactment field! Battlefields sound like horrific, terrifying and hell-like places to be, which psychologically damage those who have been there. No place for a woman? No place for any human, more like!
“In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use.”
- Achille Marozzo, 1536
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Eric Meulemans
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 23 Nov, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: |
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I recommend the book Warrior Women by Jeannine Davis-Kimball, which examines - as its subtitle declares - "History's Hidden Heroines." Davis-Kimball is known for her work on Central Asian nomadic cultures, particularly her hand in discovering the now-famous Sauromatian and Sarmation (6th C. B.C. through 3rd C. A.D) burials containing female warriors in present-day Pokrovka, Russia. There was a PBS documentary on one of these burials (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/previous_seas...index.html) though she excavated at least seven female graves containing iron swords, daggers, and bronze arrowheads.
She also has a brief article with photos on her website here: http://www.csen.org/WomenWarriors/Statuses_Women_Warriors.html
Searching on these terms and those related to the "real Amazons" and such will yield numerous results relating to the role of women as warriors in history.
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Mark Millman
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| Posted: Sun 23 Nov, 2008 11:56 am Post subject: |
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Dear Ms. Perry,
| On Sunday 23 November 2008, you wrote: | In terms of the Walpurgis image from the earliest fightbook - I.33 - currently in the Royal Armouries collection. The image depicts a lady called 'Walpurgis', who adopts the 'woman's guard'. Wagner and Hand comment that the prescence of the female image may suggest self defence for sister of the Church, or a training manual for judicial duals, which women were also expected to participate in, or finally as an illustration of 'The Woman's guard' - i.e. looking weak and defenceless when in fact you are not.
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I'm afraid that Royal Armouries MS. I.33 does not at any point refer to a "woman's guard". On page 63 of the text (p.144 of Jeffrey Forgeng's 2003 book, The Medieval Art of Swordsmanship, co-published by Chivalry Bookshelf and the Royal Armouries) Walpurgis takes an unusual guard, but it's called "specificata custodia secunda sacerdotis, locata in humero dextro", or in Dr. Forgeng's translation, "the Priest's special Second Guard, located on the right shoulder." She does not assume any other guard or opposition, but watches as the priest "covers", and then binds his sword and shield-strikes him. I believe that the interpretation that her initial ward represents a "woman's guard" in which a combatant pretends weakness to draw in the adversary is incorrect, as the Priest who faces Walpurgis uses one of the treatise's previously established responses for combatants in low wards who face attackers that approach in high, aggressive wards. The Priest does not attempt to execute a more aggressive attack or to adopt a guard more threatening than that of Walpurgis', but uses a standard maneuver from his First Guard.
Another explanation of Walpurgis' presence is that she may represent a patroness, celestial or earthly, of the establishment in which the I.33 manuscript was produced, and is included in homage or as a symbol. Personally, I prefer to believe that she depicts a woman fencer.
Best,
Mark Millman
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David E. Farrell
Location: Evanston, IL Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 156
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| Posted: Sun 23 Nov, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| David McElrea wrote: | | Quote: | | I was always under the impression that Walpurgis wasn't a particular person (at least not a 'real' person), but rather a representation of something else. And I think in modern german that name basically means 'witch'. |
Walpurgis comes from Walpurga, a name that was popularized by its association with St Walpurga. The only connection between this name and witchcraft is that witches were said to gather for one last celebration on Walpurgis Night, the night before St Walpurga's Day when they would be banished from the land.
I don't believe the woman in 1.33 represents a witch. |
Ah - I stand corrected. Thanks.
AKA: 'Sparky' (so I don't need to explain later  )
For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
-- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare
Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused... but on a higher level.
-- Enrico Fermi
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Frances Perry
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 23 Nov, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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I'm afraid that Royal Armouries MS. I.33 does not at any point refer to a "woman's guard". On page 63 of the text (p.144 of Jeffrey Forgeng's 2003 book, The Medieval Art of Swordsmanship, co-published by Chivalry Bookshelf and the Royal Armouries) Walpurgis takes an unusual guard, but it's called "specificata custodia secunda sacerdotis, locata in humero dextro", or in Dr. Forgeng's translation, "the Priest's special Second Guard, located on the right shoulder."
Best,
Mark Millman[/quote]
Dear Mr Millman,
Thank you for that observation, but I took the description straight from the book 'Medieval Sword and Shield - The Combat System of the Royal Armouries MSI.33' by Wagner and Hand, 2003. However, I understand that it is the opinions and inturpretations of Wagner and Hand rather than my own observations and translations of MS I.33. My other half has also pointed out that the Wagner and Hand book is 'lacking in many areas' and not the best book to use in accompanying I.33 studies.
Ultimately, I was making the point that a woman is depicted in the fight manual, and - to be honest - I don't buy all that BS about her being a patroness / goddess / celestial body / whatever. I consider that she was a fencer as well.
Kind Regards,
Frances Perry
“In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use.”
- Achille Marozzo, 1536
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David E. Farrell
Location: Evanston, IL Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 156
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| Posted: Sun 23 Nov, 2008 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Millman wrote: | Dear Ms. Perry,
| On Sunday 23 November 2008, you wrote: | In terms of the Walpurgis image from the earliest fightbook - I.33 - currently in the Royal Armouries collection. The image depicts a lady called 'Walpurgis', who adopts the 'woman's guard'. Wagner and Hand comment that the prescence of the female image may suggest self defence for sister of the Church, or a training manual for judicial duals, which women were also expected to participate in, or finally as an illustration of 'The Woman's guard' - i.e. looking weak and defenceless when in fact you are not.
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I'm afraid that Royal Armouries MS. I.33 does not at any point refer to a "woman's guard". On page 63 of the text (p.144 of Jeffrey Forgeng's 2003 book, The Medieval Art of Swordsmanship, co-published by Chivalry Bookshelf and the Royal Armouries) Walpurgis takes an unusual guard, but it's called "specificata custodia secunda sacerdotis, locata in humero dextro", or in Dr. Forgeng's translation, "the Priest's special Second Guard, located on the right shoulder." She does not assume any other guard or opposition, but watches as the priest "covers", and then binds his sword and shield-strikes him. I believe that the interpretation that her initial ward represents a "woman's guard" in which a combatant pretends weakness to draw in the adversary is incorrect, as the Priest who faces Walpurgis uses one of the treatise's previously established responses for combatants in low wards who face attackers that approach in high, aggressive wards. The Priest does not attempt to execute a more aggressive attack or to adopt a guard more threatening than that of Walpurgis', but uses a standard maneuver from his First Guard.
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There is, however, a 'Woman's guard' in the system of Fiore Dei Liberi - but it too has absolutely nothing to do with women, except for the possibility of a bit of 15th C chauvinism in the naming based on what the guard does tactically.
AKA: 'Sparky' (so I don't need to explain later )
For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother
-- King Henry, Henry V, William Shakespeare
Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused... but on a higher level.
-- Enrico Fermi
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Mark Millman
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| Posted: Sun 23 Nov, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Ms. Perry,
| On Sunday 23 November 2008, you quoted and wrote: | | Mark Millman wrote: |
I'm afraid that Royal Armouries MS. I.33 does not at any point refer to a "woman's guard". On page 63 of the text (p.144 of Jeffrey Forgeng's 2003 book, The Medieval Art of Swordsmanship, co-published by Chivalry Bookshelf and the Royal Armouries) Walpurgis takes an unusual guard, but it's called "specificata custodia secunda sacerdotis, locata in humero dextro", or in Dr. Forgeng's translation, "the Priest's special Second Guard, located on the right shoulder."
Best,
Mark Millman |
Dear Mr Millman,
Thank you for that observation, but I took the description straight from the book 'Medieval Sword and Shield - The Combat System of the Royal Armouries MSI.33' by Wagner and Hand, 2003. However, I understand that it is the opinions and inturpretations of Wagner and Hand rather than my own observations and translations of MS I.33. My other half has also pointed out that the Wagner and Hand book is 'lacking in many areas' and not the best book to use in accompanying I.33 studies.
Ultimately, I was making the point that a woman is depicted in the fight manual, and - to be honest - I don't buy all that BS about her being a patroness / goddess / celestial body / whatever. I consider that she was a fencer as well.
Kind Regards,
Frances Perry |
I'm glad to see that we fundamentally agree. I trust that you'll forgive me if I use this instance to remind the membership in general of the dangers of relying on secondary sources--or, for that matter, anecdote or unsupported memory. This is why I quoted the Latin text--it says "custodia . . . sacerdotis", meaning "Priest's . . . guard". If Stephen Hand and Paul Wagner translate that section as "woman's . . . guard", they are simply wrong--and, if they don't show the Latin, they make it difficult to catch the error.
If they do not so translate, but are characterizing the Priest's special Second Guard as a "woman's guard"--well, that's not wholly unreasonable, as the only person shown using it is Walpurgis, but I disagree with the conclusions they draw from that fact, as I indicated in my first post. To do them justice, their book was published, as you point out, five years ago, and they may well no longer support the interpretations in it; I haven't read the book or seen any newer publication of theirs updating Medieval Sword and Shield. But I figured it was worth summarizing the reasons that I disagree with the interpretation, since not all the readers of this thread are likely to have studied the treatise.
Thank you for giving me an opportunity to blather on about this really fascinating Fechtbuch.
Best,
Mark Millman
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Shahril Dzulkifli
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| Posted: Sun 23 Nov, 2008 6:27 pm Post subject: Historical examples of female warriors... |
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I have a contribution to make -
Nancy Morgan-Hart
Hart took care of her family when her husband Benjamin served in the war. She was also a spy. She even dressed up as a simple-minded man and wandered into Tory camps. Hart gathered information and passed it along to patriots. One story was about how group of Tories invaded her home. Hart then served them wine and got them drunk. Later she took their guns and shot two of the men. Some of the remaining Tories have been hanged under her orders. Hart also fought in the Battle of Kettle Creek on February 14, 1779.
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Bruno Giordan
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| Posted: Mon 24 Nov, 2008 6:00 am Post subject: |
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Onorata Rodiani
A painter, she killed a nobleman in defence of her virtue.
She had to flee revenge, so she became a mercenary under the identity of a man.
http://www.geocities.com/eschiva/rodiana.html
http://members.fortunecity.com/onorata/index.htm
"Onorata was born Castellone, in Cremona, Italy. Her reputation as an artist (painter) was so great that the Marquis Gabrino Fandolo engaged her to decorate his palace. It was whilst she was painting a mural for the Marquis that a courtier tried to rape her. Onorata stabbbed him (to death), and made her escape, disguised as a man. The furious Marquis unsuccessfully sent soldiers after her. Once his fury had abated and he finally realised that no-one else could finish the murals, the Marquis offered Onorata a pardon for her return. It was too late. Onorata had joined a band of Condottiere (professional paid soldiers). Eventually she gained her own command. After 30 years of soldiering and painting, Onorata was killed when relieving her besieged native town of Castellone from the Venetians."
”Onorata fui, onorata vissi, onorata muoio”, as her last phrase while dying reportedly is: Honoured I was (a pun on her name, meaning honoured woman), honoured I lived, honoured I die.
http://books.google.it/books?id=qnBu6eUvx18C&...;ct=result
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David Black Mastro
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| Posted: Tue 25 Nov, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Historical examples of female warriors... |
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| JE Sarge wrote: | My wife and I were having a discussion about this the other night. Initially only two names came to mind.
Joan of Arc and Boudica
I was amazed at my own ignorance in this matter. I can converse all day about males from antiquity, yet I drew a blank when it came to significant female military warriors/leaders of antiquity outside of royalty or the above mentioned. I have heard of a few others, yet their names and details elude me (I am really bad with Scandinavian names). So, I opened this thread to discuss historical examples of female warriors.
Any contributions? |
I'll go with Maria la Bailadora (Maria "the Dancer"), who fought at the great naval Battle of Lepanto, on October 7, 1571. Maria was the lover of a Spanish soldier, and when he shipped out to fight the Turks, she disguised herself as a man, and went with him. At Lepanto, she served on the Real ("Royal"), which was the Capitana (flagship galley) of the entire Holy League Fleet, commanded by the young, talented Don John of Austria, the bastard son of Charles V of Spain, and hence King Philip II's half-brother. Maria fought as an arquebusier at Lepanto, and during the climax of the battle, when Don John's Real locked horns with the Sultana of Ali Pasha, she was supposedly the first Christian soldier to board the Turkish flagship. She actually killed a Turk in hand-to-hand combat, with one well-placed sword-thrust. After the battle, she was rewarded for her valor by being allowed to remain in her regiment, even after her true gender was revealed. Author Jack Beeching suggested that, given the Ottoman penchant for taking female slaves during their raids on Christian coasts, Maria might have joined the fleet and fought not only out of love for her Spanish soldier boyfriend, but also out of some need to get some payback against the "Terrible Turk".
For info on her, I suggest The Galleys at Lepanto by Jack Beeching, and the Time-Life title, The Seafarers--The Venetians.
"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Tue 25 Nov, 2008 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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Here are a handful off the top of my head that we know from historical documents. Quite a few pirates.
Artemisia of Halicarnassus (aka Artemisia I of Caria), 5th Century BC
Greek queen, tyrant, naval commander, political advisor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemisia_I_of_Caria
Freydís Eiríksdóttir, 11th Century AD
Norwegian explorer, warrior, pioneer, killer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freydis
Jeanne De Clisson 14th Century
Breton Pirate and rebel leader, scourge of the French Navy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanne_de_Clisson
Gráinne Ní Mháille (called Grace O'Malley by the English and also called "The Sea Queen Of Connaught"), 1530 – 1603 AD (73 years old)
Irish Pirate, Noble, Mother, Well Educated, Spoke to Queen Elizabeth the I
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_O%27Malley
Julie d'Aubigny (aka “La Maupin”), 1670-1707 AD (37 years old)
French aristocrat, swordswoman, duelist, storyteller, outlaw and opera singer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Maupin
http://home.comcast.net/~brons/Maupin/LaMaupin.html
There are numerous others, I learned of a few I didn't know of in this thread. When I get some time I'll dig a few more knightly types up.
Don't forget that there is a rather vast body of archeological evidence now of women buried with functional weapons, such as the rather spectacular recent finds in Central Asia associated with Scythian / Sarmatian / Sauromatian cultures
http://www.archaeology.org/9701/abstracts/sarmatians.html
| Quote: | | The warrior women known to ancient Greek authors as Amazons were long thought to be creatures of myth. Now 50 ancient burial mounds near the town of Pokrovka, Russia, near the Kazakhstan border, have yielded skeletons of women buried with weapons, suggesting the Greek tales may have had some basis in fact. Nomads known as the Sauromatians buried their dead here beginning ca. 600 B.C.; according to Herodotus the Sauromatians were descendants of the Amazons and the Scythians, who lived north of the Sea of Azov. After ca. 400 B.C. the Pokrovka mounds were reused by the Sarmatians, another nomadic tribe possibly related to the Sauromatians. In general, females were buried with a wider variety and larger quantity of artifacts than males, and seven female graves contained iron swords or daggers, bronze arrowheads, and whetstones to sharpen the weapons. Some scholars have argued that weapons found in female burials served a purely ritual purpose, but the bones tell a different story. The bowed leg bones of one 13- or 14-year-old girl attest a life on horseback, and a bent arrowhead found in the body cavity of another woman suggested that she had been killed in battle. The Pokrovka women cannot have been the Amazons of Greek myth--who were said to have lived far to the west--but they may have been one of many similar nomadic tribes who occupied the Eurasian steppes in the Early Iron Age. |
As many here are aware, these weapons were found in Finland associated with the grave of a woman. So was this sword.
Hundreds of similar graves have been found in Scandinavia, Finland, the Baltic, the British isles, Frisia, and Russia. Until recently, when bones and partial skeletons were found with a weapon it was automatically assumed that it was the grave of a male, while conversely if a spindle-whorl or a mirror was found it was a female. The Saromautian graves kind of broke this wide open, initially there were theories that the graves which had both mirrors and weapons were special transvestite warriors. That has now been debunked.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Mick Sullivan
Location: Chicago, Il Joined: 26 Nov 2008
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Wed 26 Nov, 2008 3:14 am Post subject: |
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Scathath the Warrior Woman of the Isle of Skye. She trained many of the Red Branch Knights mentioned in the Ulster Cycle in Celtic mythology, and taught the warrior Cuchulainn the feat of the "Salmon Leap", whatever the hell that was.
Im sure may would debate how "historical" of a figure she is, but I tend to believe that stories that endure so vividly for so long often have a kernel of truth.
Mick
"Behavior that's admired is the path to power among peoples everywhere."
-Beowulf Poet, trans. S. Heaney
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Greg Mele
Industry Professional
Location: Chicago, IL USA Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 356
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| Posted: Wed 26 Nov, 2008 10:21 am Post subject: |
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A quick note -
I agree with Frances' other half and Mark in saying that the Hand/Wager book "Medieval Sword and Shield" is badly dated. Actually, as I was at the time helping Chivalry Bookshelf with its WMA line, I suggested that it was *premature*. Steve and Paul are good friends, but I still think was the case, and that is precisely why it has not had the legs that some of their other work has. Anyway:
| Mark Millman wrote: | D This is why I quoted the Latin text--it says "custodia . . . sacerdotis", meaning "Priest's . . . guard". If Stephen Hand and Paul Wagner translate that section as "woman's . . . guard", they are simply wrong--and, if they don't show the Latin, they make it difficult to catch the error.
If they do not so translate, but are characterizing the Priest's special Second Guard as a "woman's guard"--well, that's not wholly unreasonable, as the only person shown using it is Walpurgis, but I disagree with the conclusions they draw from that fact, as I indicated in my first post. |
Unless I completely misremember the book, they do not translate the name of the second guard as "woman's guard". Certainly, in the old final draft of the manuscript I have on my computer they didn't. They use it as the last chapter of the book and call it "Walpurgis' Guard", a reasonable moniker. However, there was a decision madeto attach a mnemonic name to all of the principle wards. Essentially, those names are also the chapter titles of most of the book:
The First Ward: Underarm
The Second Ward: Right Shoulder
The Third Ward: Left Shoulder
The Fourth Ward: Vom Tag
The Sixth Ward: Wild Boar
The Fifth Ward: Tail Ward
The Seventh Ward: Longpoint
The Priest’s Special Longpoint
Walpurgis’ Ward
You can see that the names of the fourth, fifth and sixth wards are conflations - names borrowed from other traditions, rather than simply creating modern, descriptive monikers that would have followed the style of the other names (underarm, left shoulder, etc), but would have been wholly of the authors' invention.
I can't say that I think this was a great decision (especially when two of those names are of Italian, not German, derivation), but it is what it is. Also, during the production of that book the publisher (Brian Price) insisted upon a concordance of fundamental terminology for things like the angles of attack and footwork, which does not exist in I.33. I don't recall if this affected the decision vis a vis the guards or not, but it gives you an idea of how this was being looked at in 2002, when the book was being written. I do know that when Steve wrote his rather extensive revisions for SPADA 2, the non-canonical names were gone.
Anyway, this is a sideline to this thread, but I thought I'd chime in before the Internet does its magic and six months from now it's on multiple forums that the Priest's special second ward is called "woman's guard" and the source for that is the translation by Steve and Paul.
Greg Mele
Chicago Swordplay Guild
www.chicagoswordplayguild.com
www.freelanceacademypress.com
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Jean Henri Chandler
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Mark Millman
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| Posted: Sat 29 Nov, 2008 9:22 am Post subject: |
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Dear Greg,
| On Wednesday 26 November 2008, you wrote: | | A quick note . . . |
Thank you very much for these clarifications. I haven't read their book or the follow-up article, so I really appreciate your comments.
| Quote: | | Anyway, this is a sideline to this thread, but I thought I'd chime in before the Internet does its magic and six months from now it's on multiple forums that the Priest's special second ward is called "woman's guard" and the source for that is the translation by Steve and Paul. ;) |
And I think that this is an excellent precaution to take.
Best,
Mark Millman
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Sun 30 Nov, 2008 4:56 am Post subject: |
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This one is the most intriguing to me; the younger Olivier the Clisson--the one who served under the English and then turned to the French side in a striking reversal of his father's career--was her son, wasn't he?
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B. Fulton
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| Posted: Sun 30 Nov, 2008 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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For more modern examples, the Russian "Night Witches" (as well as several other bomber and fighter units), snipers, etc. Israel used all-female units for a short time, but has long since stopped doing so, though their women still serve in most other roles and are trained for combat since their warzone is at least half the time, in their own country.
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James R.Fox
Location: Youngstowm,Ohio Joined: 29 Feb 2008
Posts: 253
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| Posted: Sat 06 Dec, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: |
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Mr Berry-You are referring to Lady Agnes Randolph who took charge of the defence of eastern Scotland after her brother, Thomas Randolf, Earl of Moray and her husband, the Earl of March (Scotts title) were captured by Edward III. She was called Black Agnes Randolf because of her ferocius temper.When she was beseiged in Dundee castle ( I think it was) Edward threatened to hang her husband and brother if she didn't surrender. She told him to go right ahead, she had 2 sons and would make one the Earl of Moray and the other the Earl of March, since they were the only surviving heirs of their respective famlies.Edward's offensive in Scotland (his last) collapsed, and Lady Agnes was one of the Guardians of Scotland in place of her brother untill he was released.( I would bet that the Earl of March did not wear the trews in his family  )
Ja68ms
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Jean-Carle Hudon
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| Posted: Sat 06 Dec, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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Another warrior woman: Madeleine de Verchères, who turned away a war party of marauding Iroquois ( mohawk?) warriors from her settlement. I am sure that there were other such strong minded women back then, on all sides, dutch, english, mohawk, canadien, huron , but she is one of the rare ones that got the attention of the press ( now referred to as historians).
Bon coeur et bon bras
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