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M. Eversberg II
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 Posted: Tue 18 Nov, 2008 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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A side question, if I may. Why are there so many finds in the Thames river? It is my understanding that all sorts of things have been found in it (how clear is the river? The ones here are ... sh*t.), from a mace, to swords, to a knife that Arms and Armor sells. If metal is a pricey commodity in the middle ages, how come so many things turn up in it?
M.
This space for rent or lease.
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Ian Hutchison
Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Tue 18 Nov, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| M. Eversberg II wrote: | A side question, if I may. Why are there so many finds in the Thames river? It is my understanding that all sorts of things have been found in it (how clear is the river? The ones here are ... sh*t.), from a mace, to swords, to a knife that Arms and Armor sells. If metal is a pricey commodity in the middle ages, how come so many things turn up in it?
M. |
Some were part of religious ceremonies where they were "sacrificed" and put in the river. Some may have ended up there if boats capsized or sank.
That's what I can think of.
Maybe the course of the river changed to flow over a popular grave site and slowly removed the covering soil.
'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Hunter B.
Location: Away from Home Joined: 26 Aug 2008
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Tue 18 Nov, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| M. Eversberg II wrote: | A side question, if I may. Why are there so many finds in the Thames river? It is my understanding that all sorts of things have been found in it (how clear is the river? The ones here are ... sh*t.), from a mace, to swords, to a knife that Arms and Armor sells. If metal is a pricey commodity in the middle ages, how come so many things turn up in it?
M. |
Ulf the Red is rowing with some of his buddies across the river, something happens and the boat capsizes, Ulf's nice sword falls to the bottom not to be seen for 1,000 years. Lots of pistols and shotguns are located nowhere near bridges or other common landmarks for tossing guns used in crimes because someone's boat tips and they lose the weapon. Happens a lot more frequently than you'd think, especially with fly fishermen in bear country. You carry a a snubby .357 or .44 for dealing with any Brownies or blackies tucked into a holster in your waders. Waders fill with water, you lose your pistol getting rid of them, you're happy to get away alive and your pistol is washed downstream.
“It is the loose ends with which men hang themselves.”
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Mark Millman
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| Posted: Tue 18 Nov, 2008 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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Dear M. Eversberg II,
| On Tuesday 18 November 2008, you wrote: | A side question, if I may. Why are there so many finds in the Thames river? It is my understanding that all sorts of things have been found in it (how clear is the river? The ones here are ... sh*t.), from a mace, to swords, to a knife that Arms and Armor sells. If metal is a pricey commodity in the middle ages, how come so many things turn up in it?
M. |
It's true that many items were lost in the Thames, as it's a major thoroughfare into England and specifically London. In the past there was (and may still be) also a lot of boat traffic between the banks, since London has for a long time relied on resources from the river's opposite shore--now, but not always, considered part of the city. But the same is probably true of the Seine, Rhine, Rhone, and Danube, to take some immediate examples. A reason that there are so many finds, as opposed to losses, is that the Thames has repeatedly been dredged to clear the channel and has a great deal of construction on its banks. That makes the chances of finding those items that have been lost much greater than is true of less heavily developed river systems.
I understand that the Thames is one of the less clear rivers in existence, but I haven't set eyes on it in a very long time. Perhaps one of our Londoners can comment.
Finally, at some point the cost of metal--specifically iron and steel--must have dropped. Many knives have been found in what appear to be medieval garbage dumps.
I hope that this proves helpful.
Best,
Mark Millman
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JE Sarge
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 18 Nov, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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It's really a combination of all the posted reasons people have given.
As with Native American artifacts, some of the best finds are always in rivers and streams. One of the primary reasons for this is run off and flooding. Shallow graves become unearthed or erode away, heavier items can wash downhill or get gradually exposed over the centuries by natural water sources. On farms around here, where the ground is constantly tilled yield great finds as well, stream and riverbeds in these areas are prime picking for seeking out artifacts.
J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com
"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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Tony Peterson
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| Posted: Tue 18 Nov, 2008 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Millman wrote: |
I understand that the Thames is one of the less clear rivers in existence, but I haven't set eyes on it in a very long time. Perhaps one of our Londoners can comment.
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The water is very cloudy and brownish in colour. That being said the Thames is one of the cleanest rivers in Europe 
There are records of various Viking fleets sailing up the Thames, and (please correct me if Im wrong) one attack involved lines being attached to an early "London Bridge"? I cannot remember if there is any evidence as to the lines. It has been written that Olaf II destroyed the bridge in 1014. They have found lots of Viking items over the years such as swords, axes, grapple hooks etc
Cancel the kitchen scraps for lepers and orphans, no more merciful beheadings, and call off Christmas!
The time of heroes is dead: the christ god has killed it, leaving nothing but weeping martyrs and fear and shame.
If we die... it will be for GLORY, not gold.
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Tony Peterson
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| Posted: Tue 18 Nov, 2008 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Here info on another Thames Find:
Date: About 1000
Most of this sword was found in the Thames near Putney railway bridge in 1905. The point was found a year later, further upstream at Fulham, and the pieces were fixed together. The name of the maker is inlaid in large iron letters on one side of the steel blade: 'INGELRII'. In the 900s and 1000s, fine sword blades were made in the German Rhineland, and were exported to Scandinavia and to England. The names 'Ingelrii' and 'Ulfberht' appear on many of these blades, and must have represented important swordsmiths' workshops.
Accession number: A2373
Place of collection: Putney Railway Bridge, Putney, London [Wandsworth]; Bishop's Park, Fulham, London [Hammersmith and Fulham] [River Thames] [1905; 1906]
Material: iron
Measurements: L (overall) 882 mm; L (blade) 742 mm; W 54 mm
FROM: http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk
 Attachment: 22.26 KB
Sword Date: About 1000
Cancel the kitchen scraps for lepers and orphans, no more merciful beheadings, and call off Christmas!
The time of heroes is dead: the christ god has killed it, leaving nothing but weeping martyrs and fear and shame.
If we die... it will be for GLORY, not gold.
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 19 Nov, 2008 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| Bryan Johnson wrote: | Leo
What has been done to preserve the sword? How have you stopped the corrosion process? I ask because I have a few relic pieces in the same condition. |
Be really careful what you treaten original artifacts with. Avoid any polymers or materials f.e. as they decay over time, and can ruin the pieces for future generations.
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Leo R.
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| Posted: Wed 19 Nov, 2008 1:56 am Post subject: |
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OK, here are the measurements of the sword:
Entire length: 69 cm.
Blade length: 51 cm.
Blade width: 5.8 cm (widest point)
Pommel: length: 4.4 cm
Pommel heigth: 6.5 cm
Guard width: 10.6 cm.
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Mark Millman
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| Posted: Wed 19 Nov, 2008 10:47 am Post subject: |
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Dear Mr. Peterson,
| On Tuesday 18 November 2008, you wrote: | | The water is very cloudy and brownish in colour. That being said the Thames is one of the cleanest rivers in Europe :) |
Thank you very much for mentioning this; it hadn't even occurred to me when I wrote my original post. Because of the large amount of silt carried down the Thames, the riverbed is very muddy. Iron objects buried in it benefit from an anoxic environment, being protected from corrosion by the silt and mud. They also tend to be covered quickly, which further helps to protect them from rust. So there's a question of differential preservation as well, in which the Thames has an advantage over other rivers.
Best,
Mark Millman
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Wed 19 Nov, 2008 10:50 am Post subject: |
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I believe trash was deposited along the banks of the Thames for years.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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M. Eversberg II
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| Posted: Wed 19 Nov, 2008 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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I figured you would lose items there from capsized boats, but I wouldn't have figured you would simply toss knives and the like out. Good point on the silt, too.
M.
This space for rent or lease.
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