[Bill Tsafa]

I have no trouble believing that a suspension systems works as a decent buffer. Perhaps even a better buffer. If you give me a choice of a 2 lb helmet with a suspension system vs a 2 lb helmet with blue foam, the one with the suspension system may infact be the better choice between the two.

I do believe however, that that regardless of suspension or padding, that if someone received a good blow from me (see the video I posted earlier) and they can still speak, they are going to ask for a heavier helmet that will take some of the momentum off my sword. The velocity of my swing is about 160 mph and I am following that up with about 230 lbs of bodymass (250 lb with armor) as I twist my hips and clench my fist into the blow. I'm not Superman my any means. There are many guys out there that swing a lot faster then me and have more body to backup the blows.

I do believe a 2 lb helmet, with suspension, is a practical compromise for foot soldiers who have to march for weeks just to get to the battle. I do not think a person can just ignore headblows is such a helmet.

[David Teague]

[Jeroen Averhals]

Sirs,

This morning I went to an exhibition in Bruges of the treasures that Charles the Bold lost at Grandson and Morat.
There was a huge burgundian (1540-1470) tapestry there showing the battle of Pharsalos

The picture of a part of it I found here http://www.daylife.com/photo/09Aw6wz46h3tp

I noticed a cleaved helmet.

Jeroen Averhals

[David Teague]

Hello Jeroen,

That does look like a sword slash. The helm is not cleaved in twain like in the those illustrated in the much earlier "Mis-pronounce-ski" Bible and it looks that that's the back of the helm... which would be thinner than the front.

When you take a swordsman and put him on horseback, the weight and speed of the horse is added to the energy of the sword swing. If two armoured men at arms charged each other and one voided the incoming blow & struck the other in the back of the head while passing such a wound could happen IMO if the back of the helm was too thin... but armour was built and proofed to withstand sword blows and to "water shed" the energy and the weapon itself aside.

It's the heavy headed weapons built to defeat armour that would be a more likely suspect for splitting a helm: the one handed axe, war hammer, pole axe, etc.

It almost looks like those are foot soldiers being mopped up as the army passes over them... not sure.

Cheers,

DT

[Bill Tsafa]

[Josh Warren]

I'm not sure that I'm comfortable accepting SCA anecdotes about transferring concussive force through helmets as having any bearing on the topic of swords cleaving helms. An SCA rattan club has a completely different mass distribution along its length than does a real steel sword.

If anything, the rattan stick is probably better at delivering blunt trauma through armour than a sword is. A sword is going to have the greater concentration of its mass centered towards the hilt rather than the striking end due to taper, pommel, etc. The SCA club on the other hand, has a more constant mass through the length of its "blade," adding up to greater concussive power than a sword. Thus, saying "I can concuss someone through their helmet in the SCA" does not necessarily mean that you could do the same with a steel sword.

[Bartek Strojek]

Well, here in Poland guys are beating themselves with actual steel swords (blunt of course), so it might be more similar to the "real thing". I couldn't find any knockouts from head strikes, I've got one TKO to the leg though.

[url] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MncQ5OKROc0&am...ated[/url]

[url] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H-BEpwt1Ac[/url]

[Patrick Kelly]

[Bill Tsafa]

[Daniel Sullivan]

Several years ago I acquired some pieces that reportedly came from a Tower sale. One item was a one piece morion-cabasset that might have been used as a "test" piece. The top of the helmet was damaged by two vertical blows just forward of and about 90 degrees to the stalk or stem. The lesser of the two was about 1 1/2 " in length, about 1/4 " in width maybe 1/2 '' in depth. The bottom of the cut, which did not penetrate the helmet, was relatively straight. This led me to believe it was due to a sword stroke. The second cut did penetrate the helmet to a depth of well over 1' and was about 1/2'" or more in width. The interesting thing was the cut slopped downward and inward from the edges indicating to me that the damage was more than likely caused by an axe.

Also had the remnants of a left pauldron; the uppermost lame had a penetration that looked to be almost square and appeared to be either from a bolt or a hammer. Due to rust around the perimeter it was hard to determine the size, but was in the neighborhood of 3/8" or more.

It seems to me that, if helmets were not capable of protecting one against arrows or swords cuts, why in the world would they be continued to be used. That is not to say all armour was good, I'm sure there was a lot of junk that made its way to the battlefield. It is very likely few customers survived to complain about inferior workmanship.

I tend to agree with David's theory of "artistic license"........ I am likely to be castigated for saying so, and It may stretch the imagination a bit to compare these early illustrations to modern graphics. However, depictions of this sort were probably the "wham, bang, and pow" of their day. For example, Medieval Warfare by H.W. Koch is full of such illustrations and all from from a variety of sources.

Regards,
Dan

[Chris Arrington]

Vassilis,

Interestingly enough, I was in my garage today and set my new DT Schiavona down next to my SCA basket hilt sword which has been in its present incarnation for almost a year.

I instantly had a "wow" moement.

They match in length, weight, and balance almost perfectly.

[Patrick Kelly]

[Patrick Kelly]

[Bill Tsafa]

Chris, it is pretty cool when things work out so well. I have almost made hobby out of picking a sword out of my collection and trying to create a rattan sword that is as close as possible to that in all characteristics. I have a lot of basket hilts of different weights to choose from. Between adjusting the basket hilt weight, rattan thickness and blade length, I can get pretty close to my goals.

Josh, I put up a video demonstrating how much flex rattan can have:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIBj9vwjytU

Patrick, the only way "we" can compare the transmission force of rattan to steel, is to hit people with both at full force and watch the effect. Perhaps the history channel will take an interest in this subject and do some objective analysis for us using computer driven machines. I have hit people with rattan full force and I know what that does to them. I have not hit anyone with a steel Type X at full force. I have hit my pell and a variety of other test subjects and the steel hits a lot harder and bites a lot deeper. I did meet up with a guy this past summer in Texes for a duel with steel blunts. Everything, I have ever done with a rattan sword worked just as well with the steel blunt. It was a seamless transition. I did not use a Type X blade for safeties sake. The blade I used had much less blade mass near the tip. The last six inches the blade was almost rapier like. It still hit hard.

Interestingly, marshals in the SCA have looked into using alternatives to rattan because rattan does break up and then the blows don't feel like anything. I have to replace my sticks every two months. I was shown a piece of solid fiber glass that a marshal was testing. It was rejected because it did not have any flex and hit too hard.

Edit:
I was wondering if I have gone too far off topic. I almost forgot how we got this point in the discussion. To summarize, the topic is "if swords can cleave through helmets". I think NO in most cases, except for defective helms. I do believe that a hard sword blow can scramble someones brain pretty good inside a 2 lb nasal helm. This is based on the effect of a rattan sword which flexes on an overbuilt modern helm that weighs 7 to 10 lbs. Between the wooden sword flexing and the helm being overbuilt, I think there is a wide margin in favor of saying that a steel Type X will give a good shake up to a man in a 2 lb nasal helm.

As far as period images that show swords cleaving helms, I think they are exaggerating the point that a hard sword blow to an opponent's head is a very good thing to do in battle.

[Justin King]

Just for fun here is a quote from Jean Giono's "The Battle of Pavia", referring to the clash betwen the French men at arms and Spanish arquebusiers and fusiliers, where the King of France is eventually taken prisoner. Not that I am advocating the truth of this quote...
"Saint-Sevrin, master of the king's horse, is hit by a back-stroke from a friend's sword; the top of his helmet flies in pieces; bare-headed, already dead but still in the saddle, he is borne at random here and there as the battle eddies around him."

This seems to refer to a poorly-tempered helmet which was too brittle and shattered, which is of course quite possible. Interestingly, the fatal stroke was supposedly accidental, which in some ways is more believable to me than the idea that knights in battle intentionally targeted an enemy's helmet in the expectation that they could hack through it.

[William P]

[Brian Robson]

I can't remember where I came across this before - it may have been here - so apologies if I'm re-posting something.

http://www.shinkendo.com/kabuto.html

I guess this is a 'best case' scenario for the sword - given the helmet is in a fixed position, on a solid base with a highly experienced swordsman taking his time to line up the shot - and it being a 2-handed shot. It's also a record and so safe to assume that most strikes under the same ideal conditions result in lesser damage.
I also remember seeing a good test in 'Weapons that made Britain' which tested a good, replica arming sword vs a fully-raised dome helm. It didn't cut (you can probably find it on youtube - I just don't know which episode it was).

I wonder whether a liner would still keep the blade away from the head in the katana example. I'd say it's possible. Couldn't speak for what the blunt impact would do though.

An extra factor to take into account on the effect of the blunt force is the weight (not thickness) of the helmet. I do re-enactment combat with steel weapons and include head-shots, so I've taken my share of un-pulled hits. I've definately noticed that when compared to smaller nasal-helms, great-helms seem to do a lot more in terms of causing the blade to rebound and lessening the feeling of the impact on the target. I think it's because a heavier helm simply has more inertia, so more energy is absorbed from the blow to overcome the inertia, meaning less is transferred to the head.


Edit:
Yep - that shinkendo link was posted on the first page of this thread! Apologies Dan for repeating your finds!!

Surprised to see it's still being discussed though.

[Till J. Lodemann]

Hi William,

You are right in the assumption that a scientific experiment would be a better basis then subjective experience.
But I think that something like concussive damage to the brain for example, is a very complicated thing to simulate in an experiment and that in this circumstances some experiences of people really receiving massive blows on their helmets are the best hint we can get to what happens in such situations:

[Matthew Amt]

[Till J. Lodemann]