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Don Z
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 Posted: Mon 27 Oct, 2008 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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also
alot of your 'evidence' is speculatory off of sculpted items
the presumption or theory is that it "may" be the thing mentioned in a specific article but there is always room for what should be alled healthy alternative speculation
they could be depicting a camal hair tunic for all we know
it's done by an artist as close as he can get we presume
this leaves the item under the constant question of how good was its maker.
the guy could have been a hack and been trying to create a nude chess set of really hairy guys
the fact is we don't know.........
it would be worth bearting in mind that some troops are riding elephants in the chess set too
does this mean you'd like to incorporate elephant combat into your 9th century impression?
the Vizelay capitals are stylised enough that i think it would be a stretch to use them as conclusive evidence for anything concerning clothing from the period
especially because they are depicting previous eras
i would also imagine a similar thing is happening with the chess set of charlemagne with the presence of elephants and chariots. I know of no literary source documenting chariots and elephants in the marches
but i'm no expert.....i could always be wrong
it happened before............
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David Huggins
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| Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2008 3:02 am Post subject: Viking Leather padded garments |
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| Mikael Ranelius wrote: | Jean-Carle, no one here has made any claims that the Viking-age Norse wore mail with nothing under it. Nor has anyone argued that they didn’t use fur and leather for some clothing; we know they did. The question is whether leather was used to make Viking armour, and also whether some kind of padded garment was worn beneath mail.
My belief is that leather armour was rare, if used at all. I haven’t yet seen any satisfying or convincing evidences to suggest Viking leather armour or padded garments, although I don’t find them to be inconceivable. But until more evidence appear, I will assume that my ancestors were happy to wear a sturdy woollen coat/tunic under their armour (for those who had), whether it was mail or lamellar.
Then as a side note, I think people here tend to exaggerate the Scandinavian climate. Denmark (including those parts that now belong to Sweden but used to be Danish) has a climate not unlike Britain, whereas the temperatures on the Norwegian coast are comparatively mild thanks to the warm Gulf Stream. Although the winters can be harsh (and even harsher in the past), it can get pretty hot during summer. Only the extreme north (present day Norwegian Finnmark and Swedish and Finnish Lapland) has anything like an arctic climate, and those parts were not inhabited by the Norse. |
For what it's worth, n my own opinion I don't think the weather conditions are necessarily exagerated. I have worked in the North Sea for over three decades, and even on relatively mild days, a prevailing wind can effect the wind chill factor considerably and lead to mild hypothermia. I have no doubt that a combination of oiled hides and woolen garments where worn...even if not as 'armour' 
On a different tack, I was in Prague during the summer and had the oppertunity to see the items associated with King Wenceslas, among these was a maile huberk, very fine riveted links and with a raised collar, my assumption is that the raised collar must have had some form of rigid supportive garment to make it functional.
Of couse the maile could well be from a later period much like the sword associated with Charlamagne!
best
Dave
and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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Nick Trueman
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| Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2008 6:00 am Post subject: |
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On a different tack, I was in Prague during the summer and had the oppertunity to see the items associated with King Wenceslas, among these was a maile huberk, very fine riveted links and with a raised collar, my assumption is that the raised collar must have had some form of rigid supportive garment to make it functional.
Hey!
Did they display the separate maile collar and skirting on the shirt?
Also the single piece dome has been dated to a earlier period to when the nasal was fixed to the ceremonial helm of St Wenceslaus. The dome has been dated to mid/late 10th c....Also there are misplaced rivet holes hidden behind the nasal which displays Christs crucifiction.
This helmet was recycled from a earlier period....Maybe it was his? We will never know. A single piece nasal helm dated to the mid 10th c was un earthed in Poland also.
Many nomadic shirts have this same collar, but not separate to the shirt...In burials they are turned down like a typical modern day shirt collar. Also they are off center to suit the caftan style garment worn underneath. The caftan wrapping over the left breast.
Cheers
N
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Mikael Ranelius
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| Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2008 6:36 am Post subject: Re: Viking Leather padded garments |
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| David Huggins wrote: | | Mikael Ranelius wrote: | Jean-Carle, no one here has made any claims that the Viking-age Norse wore mail with nothing under it. Nor has anyone argued that they didn’t use fur and leather for some clothing; we know they did. The question is whether leather was used to make Viking armour, and also whether some kind of padded garment was worn beneath mail.
My belief is that leather armour was rare, if used at all. I haven’t yet seen any satisfying or convincing evidences to suggest Viking leather armour or padded garments, although I don’t find them to be inconceivable. But until more evidence appear, I will assume that my ancestors were happy to wear a sturdy woollen coat/tunic under their armour (for those who had), whether it was mail or lamellar.
Then as a side note, I think people here tend to exaggerate the Scandinavian climate. Denmark (including those parts that now belong to Sweden but used to be Danish) has a climate not unlike Britain, whereas the temperatures on the Norwegian coast are comparatively mild thanks to the warm Gulf Stream. Although the winters can be harsh (and even harsher in the past), it can get pretty hot during summer. Only the extreme north (present day Norwegian Finnmark and Swedish and Finnish Lapland) has anything like an arctic climate, and those parts were not inhabited by the Norse. |
For what it's worth, n my own opinion I don't think the weather conditions are necessarily exagerated. I have worked in the North Sea for over three decades, and even on relatively mild days, a prevailing wind can effect the wind chill factor considerably and lead to mild hypothermia. I have no doubt that a combination of oiled hides and woolen garments where worn...even if not as 'armour'
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Yes, damp, rainy and windy weather is worse than "dry cold", and I'm not saying that good clothing weren't necessary. Fishermen and sailors have used oiled leather for centuries, for instance, and we know they were known among the Viking-age Norse. My point is however that people living outside Scandinavia tend to have exaggerated notions about our climate, like as if there are deep snow and ice here the year around, that polar bears are roaming the streets and so on. As I said before, only the extreme north of the Scandinavian peninsula has anything like an arctic climate, the rest is within the temperate zone. The viking-age Norse would hardly have needed clothing much warmer than the ones used during winter by neighbouring Slavs, Germans or Anglo-Saxons. The image of a Viking warrior, always dressed from top to toe in thick hides and fur against the extreme cold, is a stereotype that is derrived from the missconseption that all of Scandinavia is supposed to be arctic.
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Chase S-R
Location: New Mexico Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 166
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| Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Violet le Duc was an architect and his writings are over a hundred years old. I'm not sure any of his writings concerning arms and armour are still considered definitive. |
I know... Im just saying to look at his drawings and his ideas, being a hundred years old doesn't make ones work worthless.
Charles Stewart Rodriguez
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2008 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| Chase S-R wrote: | | I know... Im just saying to look at his drawings and his ideas, being a hundred years old doesn't make ones work worthless. |
In the intervening years, much more serious scholarship has been done, often refuting chunks of earlier works like le Duc's and Ashdown's.
The idea of rings sewn onto a leather backing has not been confirmed by any serious scholar since and most people believe that idea and its cousin banded mail didn't exist.
Publishing long ago doesn't make ideas worthless, but more recent scholarship that disproves those ideas causes one to very carefully weigh the merits of the old research and decide how to use that info accordingly...
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Douglas S
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| Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2008 10:59 am Post subject: |
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I wonder how leather behaves in the rain. I wouldn't know, since I am in California. 
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Chase S-R
Location: New Mexico Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 166
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| Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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quoting myself...
| Quote: | | In his Dictionaire de Mobilier (Dictionary of Equipment) (vol.5,pp.70-73&241-242) Violet-le-duc claims that the norman knights at the battle of hastings wore small metal plates or rings sewn onto a leather jerkin, and well his work is long considered definitive I think that maille was more likely for that era. His work does site some examples though so you can read that area and form your own opinion. |
I agree that Le-Duc is probably incorect | Quote: | | I think that maille was more likely for that era. |
I am just pointing out his work so that one interested could review that area and see his resources etc.
as for the metal plates on leather there is as I cited archeological evidence. The real reason I brought up Le-Duc is I wanted people to see his drawings on the leather jerkin.
I do NOT believe that the ring-on-leather theory is correct.
Charles Stewart Rodriguez
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Chase S-R
Location: New Mexico Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 166
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| Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2008 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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Oh there is a leather jerkin from the viking era found in a loch in scotland I believe. I will have to find a picture of it and the book that talks of it
Charles Stewart Rodriguez
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Chase S-R
Location: New Mexico Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 166
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Chase S-R
Location: New Mexico Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 166
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| Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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Heimskringlasaga is written by Snorri Sturluson. In that is St. Olaf's Saga, aka Olaf Haraldson's Saga, about St. Olaf, King of Norway (c1015-1030).
"He had 12 large coats of reindeer skin made for him."
"King Olaf hewed at Thorer Hund, and struck him across the shoulders; but the sword would not cut, and it was as if dust flew from his reindeer-skin coat."
"It was blowing a cold wind, and Styrkar had not much other clothing upon him but his shirt, and had a helmet on his head, and a drawn sword in his hand. As soon as his weariness was over, he began to feel cold. A waggoner met him in a lined skin-coat. Styrkar asks him, "Wilt thou sell thy coat, friend?"
Here is DRESS IN ANGLO-SAXON ENGLAND look at pages 176-179
http://books.google.com/books?id=45RJYhTGZiUC...#PPA178,M1
Charles Stewart Rodriguez
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David Huggins
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| Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject: Viking padded leather garment |
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Nick,
To be honest I can't recall if the maile collar was a seperate item to the main body, what struck be most about the maile was it's fineness and the small diameter of te links. unfortunately I was unable to take any photo's due to the museum's protocols. There was also a great little exhibition of helms, lobsterpots, shako's etc.
Mikail
Yes I do agree that the general perception is Vikings dressed in furry boots, jerkins etc...just look at all those guys who attend those American Ren fares 
Chase
Thanks for the update on the find from Scotland , I believe I mentioned this find in my first post on this thread. Their are also a small number of these 'budgets' from Ireland, and possibly a similar such satchel bag depicted on an Anglo-Saxon manuscript.
While leather or a combination may not wholly protect the wearer's body and limb from devastating trauma perhaps we should consider that it perhaps may reduce the level of trauma suffered enabling the chances of survival to be just that bit more and hence justify wearing such a garment?
Also Bruce Tordoff made a good point regarding the enchanted reindeer shirts; if the wearer believes they are enchanted and going to offer protection he has an edge over his opponent, and perhaps even more so if his enemy also shares the same belief system.
Bersekers and Ulfhednar warriors certainly believed they where protected from edged weapons and so did the adversaries, even if the actuality was different, making them a formidable reckless warrior. We should be careful when applying our 21st Century logic to the mindset of any period warrior and combatant.
best
Dave
and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Douglas S wrote: | | I wonder how leather behaves in the rain. I wouldn't know, since I am in California. |
At first in light drizzle it sort of give good protection from rain but in a heavy downpour it can get saturated with water and let water sweat through to the inside. Treated with oil or some other water proofing I would guess it leaves the wearer dry somewhat longer.
It cold and very rainy in Québec this time of year so this is my experience with an ordinary leather coat not completely waterproofed.
Oh, if fully saturated with water it takes a long time to dry and weight a ton and the finish may stay blotchy and stained.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Nick Trueman
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| Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2008 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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With such rich archaeological evidence for the type of armours worn by the Norse, I really dont see the point for looking for more in sources which are dubious and out of date.
The rich Norse Hersir and warrior class were armed to the teeth!!! Maile, Helm and shield with central boss and later/end of the viking age, kite and almond shaped shields.
This leaves the lower legs and lower arms unprotected, but no armour is perfect.
Weaponry used - principal weapon was the spear. Also with sword, seax and maybe a axe....These guys were the tanks of the battlefield in the 8th to 11th c !!!
We hypothesize a garment which has qualities to lower the chances of blunt trauma was worn under maile. Fair enough but what it was made off or how it was constructed is beyond our reach of knowing until something is found. It doesnt even have to be quilted...I have never worn a quilted gambeson for Norse, or Caftan for Nomadic impressions. I simply use known tunic/caftan patterns and use a thin 4-5 mm felt of good quality....I leave the outside material ( Linen ) free of any sewing apart from seams so it looks like a normal tunic/caftan. It works well and is not bulky. The felt so dense, has fantastic qualities to absorb impact, it doesnt need to be thick.
Look if archaeologists ever find a leather armour in a Norse context, I will embrace it fully. But till that day.
Cheers
N
PS....The St Wenceslas maile, It has a maile collar and skirt resembling a Bishop's mantle (No, not the later period maile garment) but a connection to the ecclesiastical garment worn by Bishops. I suppose this was to make St Wenceslas look like the 'The Warrior Saint' and to show that he had strong ties to the church, a warrior in Christ's name.
I do have a very good quality photo of the maile and helm in the book 'Europas Mitte Um 1000'. In German...fantastic book, look out for it.
Cheers
N
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Nick Trueman
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| Posted: Wed 29 Oct, 2008 12:30 am Post subject: Re: Viking Leather Padded Garment |
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| Zach Gordon wrote: | Hi y'all,
Im new im just getting into reenacting and ren faires. I wanted to get a padded leather garment for a viking suit. I want one that could be worn over or under chainmail (if i can afford it).
How historical is it?
How much/where2buy?
How hard to make (im not so good at sewing and stuff)? |
Now Zach...Are you sure you still want to be a reenactor/collector? We are all mad and have OCD !!!!
I have 2 patterns that may interest you? What you use to make it is up to you......Im sorry this discussion hasnt really answered your question properly.
Cheers
N
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Gavin Kisebach
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| Posted: Wed 29 Oct, 2008 4:36 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Now Zach...Are you sure you still want to be a reenactor/collector? We are all mad and have OCD !!!! |
Seriously. This is why some of us have adopted a philosophy of "live and let learn". The very zeal with which we sometimes pursue historical "accuracy" seems enough to drive any sane person away. It's better in my mind to welcome people into the flock of history buffs and turn a blind eye to a questionable kit item than to nitpick them until they run away screaming.
My wife started out going to SCA events with the most preposterous hodgepodge of eras and styles; very "medievalish". She told me that being period didn't matter to her. Now that she's had a while to look around and see other peoples kits, the details start to matter more and more. She's currently working on a pretty darned accurate Tudor dress, and already she's thinking of how to make the next one "more period". The passion for accuracy will come with time, if you let people explore and research at a comfortable pace.
There are only two kinds of scholars; those who love ideas and those who hate them. ~ Emile Chartier
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Nick Trueman
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| Posted: Wed 29 Oct, 2008 5:07 am Post subject: |
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Agreed Gavin
People who know me know that I dont pick on new people. But I have seen this done to new people and it actually was done to me when I first started 12 years ago.
Cheers
N
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Don Z
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| Posted: Wed 29 Oct, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Gavin Kisebach wrote: | | Quote: | | Now Zach...Are you sure you still want to be a reenactor/collector? We are all mad and have OCD !!!! |
It's better in my mind to welcome people into the flock of history buffs and turn a blind eye to a questionable kit item than to nitpick them until they run away screaming.. |
heck who wants to be sane anyway.........
but very good pointn Gavin and Nick
you say it better than i do....
the only other thought i've had on the leather Gambeson for Zach is that it might be worth doing a rough cost equivalent to some lower level imported riveted maille
the money and time you'd spend making a leather gambeson might be similar if you spent the time you'd spend making it working instead and then buy some nice pretty rivetted maille. you could then use Nicks idea of a non-quilted gambeson. if you use a couple of layers of felt and don't quilt them you have more flexibility and they kind of puff meaning you avoid the compaction that happens to quilted gambesons over time.
not saying this is what you must do, just worth the look
mind you my idea is completely useless if you want to do it for the experience.
"war is hell" - unanimous
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