[Chase S-R]

I'm just pointing out what are in the sagas. Like has been pointed out there is no complete maille shirt from the period, so would you say maille didn't exist? No because the sagas say they existed and their are scraps. There are scraps of leather as well and there are stories in the sagas. Would you say the authors of The Vikings Voyagers of conquest And Discovery are also deluded? Or the author of The Viking Hersir, or the authors of most of the books on this period?
Then their are the tapestry's and carvings which I guess must all have had creators who were mistaken...
And I guess the author of the saga must also have been mistaken...
oh and in the sagas many of the maille shirts had spells on them too so I guess they weren't protective either...
p.s. I really enjoyed being called "seriously deluded"

[Mackenzie Cosens]

I think that people discount the defensive capacity of a shield. With a center boss round shield most of the torso is protected by the shield. Armouring the torso with maile or something else becomes a "nice to have" rather then a necessity.


Mackenzie

[Ville Vinje]

To most viking reenactors the facts below comes as no big surprise:

* Maile is not very uncommon in scandinavia.

* Leather was not expensive (why in the world do people think that?).

* There is no evidence what so ever that points us to leather armour.

* A chainmaile is not worthless without leather garment or gambeson.

[Nathan Robinson]

[Johan S. Moen]

I've had a look through both my copies of Snorre, and it doesn't say anything there about _padded_ coats of reindeerhide. It only mentions coats of reindeerhide. I'd be wary to trust english translations of the sagas and similar material; for an example, the translations of the Speculum Regale that I've seen do leave something to be desired.

In Olav den Heilages saga, there is the passage about Tore Hund aquiring 12 reindeer coats from the sami, and they are again mentioned in the tale of the battle of Stiklestad. The saga describes them as being unusually well enchanted, so that they offer better protection than even a mail shirt.

One possibility for the coats being mentioned at all is to underline that Tore is being a dirty pagan using witchcraft to help him against the good christian king Olav...

Johan Schubert Moen

[Anders Nilsson]

[Johan S. Moen]

[David Huggins]

Hi all,

As has been remarked there is to my knowledge no substanial evidence for the use of padded leather arming tunics, gambesons or other in the period in questions.

There are a very few remaining leather items from the viking age that could be called shirts from the Ireland and Scotland, but again no contextual evidence to suggest a martial use, or not !

The cross hatching depicted on a number of period items depicting warriors of the period are wide open to conjecture, artistic conventions perhaps depicting maile or perhaps padded tunics, scale or whatever. Many European re-enactors have come to the conclussion that such padded gambesons are a re-enactorism.

The question of the representation of Odo on the Bayeux Tapestry in what could be interpretated as a padded item of armour has been a topic of discussion and argument for a long time.Perhaps it is a scale armour...we can't be sure what the artist/craft folk where trying to convey, to me it just seems odd on a piece of work where ring maile is pretty much obviously depicted, this character is depicted as he is. There are however a number of other characters depicted in crosshatched 'armour', ...a lazy seamstress perhaps.
''
The 'battle coat' depicted on the migration age pressblech are shown on warriors engaging in combat and not just on the dancing horned figure on the Sutton Hoo pressblech, see pressblech on Vendel 14 of the two foot figures engaging in combat one in a 'maile' and one in a 'battle coat.

There are also Anglo-Saxon grave finds that have gold braid remnants concurrant with the wrap over effect of these coats in some 'Princely' inhumations.

It is difficult to say what material the coats are made from, but I don't see it as been unreasonable to make the coat in a leather material as opposed to a woolen one.What differance the materials would make as a form of protection from sword, spear or other offensive weapons I suspect is 'not a lot.' . From enviromental conditions I suspect there would be some differance that would make the leather option perhaps a more viable one.

The availablity of maile, at least in the late viking age is now unquestioned in academic circles, but it's paucity continues to be perputated by some authors, re-enactors.

This general topic has been discussed a number of times I think on this forum, and folk have aired their views, my own conclusion is we can not be certain one way or the other and perhaps suggest that it is up to the individual re-enactor to balance the opinions and make up his own mind

best
Dave

[Ville Vinje]

I totaly agree with all of the above said by Dave.

[Anders Nilsson]

[Chase S-R]

I agree with David, I do not believe their is conclusive proof one way or the other. I just do not believe someone can completely dissprove its existence. As for leather not being an armour merely because it was enchanted is I believe not true, I can think of a few sagas where maille is enchanted.

[Johan S. Moen]

[Anders Nilsson]

[Douglas S]

It does matter what degree of authenticity Zach wants to devote himself to, and to which reenacting group he is attached.
For some groups, the "could have, would have" approach is adequate. Other groups will need more documentation.

It's Zach's choice.

[Randall Moffett]

I think in the end using leather cannot be proven to have been done for vikings as armour. There are fleeting mentions of leather articles but no overt mention of leather armour. That said most of what viking reenactment does is done on a 'fudge' factor. 90-95% of the helmets used in most groups I have seen are guesses of what could or would have been worn.

Slightly earlier and in a different region and culture. In my Class with Martin Carver at York for my MA he indicated at Sutton Hoo the body found had evidence there had some sort of leather cuirass on at one time. I looked around for one of his articles on it but have not been able to find it. Of course Martin likely thinks it was more symbolic as a tie to romans but I doubt he'd argue it could not have been armour as well. Might be worth some interested soul looking into Sutton Hoo Martin Carver articles/books for leather armour evidence.

RPM

[Gavin Kisebach]

As an aside, how does leather hold up over long distances in a seagoing vessel? Does oiling keep it safe? Would our speculative coat fare well against a squall, or would a man want to keep it in the bottom of his bench chest away from the rain?

I've never spent any time on the ocean, so I really don't know how leather fares against salt water.

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Ville Vinje]

I spend quite some time on the sea sailing vikingships. Leather works fine if greased. Wool however is better in almost every way. If you don't want to get wet then seal skin is the way to go. We can't hunt seal here in sweden though so most of us use thick wool. In very hard weather I would imagine that a combination of wool and seal skin would do the trick. The "Skjoldehamn clothes" works very well at sea.

Sorry for being a bit OT.

[Chase S-R]

The Viking Ship Museum in Roskilde Denmark has a reproduction wool and leather "rain" suit based off an orginal. It consists of a leather tunic and breeches treated with fat and beeswax to make it water ressistant, worn over a wool tunic and breeches to keep you warm. They have done tests against modern fishermans wet weather gear and found the Viking age suit superior.

[David Huggins]

Hi guys

Going off track from Zach's original question I guess, but Tacitus mentions Germani on the North Western Fringes of Europe wearing the skins of marine mamals, and my own assumtion is seal skins.

It has been said that 'Vik' sails wear constructed from wool from an indigenous breed that had greater water shedding resistance then other breeds of sheep.

Just going back to the 'battle coat' garment worn by warriors in Scandinavia and what is now England in the late 6th and 7th Century, I must stress my own (humble) opinion is they where not neccessarily considered as armour by their wearers. They appear to be high status and worn by a military elite, so one would assume worn by highly experianced warriors and as the pressblech on V14 shows considered worthy of wear in combat irrespective of their ability to withstand weaponary. The coats may also have had some advantages, perhaps weight was a factor however minimal.

Leather has been around as a choice for as long as man has hunted and farmed, ( check out Utzi the Iceman) and for some sports and professions is still considered worthy . Clothing says far much more then just what its choice of material is and again leather in some present day communities today is also regarded as embolic and 'high status' .

best

Dave

Cultures close to the Svear had clothing made from hides and in some respects quite sophisticated tailoring, and as I understand it some had deer skin linings to their coats. Charlamagne is known to have worn a beaver skin 'waist coat' if you like. In another referance a group of visting Frank warriors are also remarked to have worn deer skin items of clothing.