[Jean-Carle Hudon]

Nick,
thank you for the information regarding the Sammi from Lappland, not really within my chords. I also appreciate the confirmation that trade did exist with the other scandinavians, and that one of the products from the north being saught by those from the south was skins. Being a french canadian, and knowing more about how important beaver pelts were to french and english and dutch in the sixteenth century, I had a hunch that people on the littoral of the Baltic would go inland and further north for Reindeer pelts, and that this would go further back in time as the coast was settled further back in time, and was certainly quite settled by the viking period when the scandinavians became net exporters of population.
I would like to note that some who don't accept the hypothesis of leather padded garments seem to think that such a garment is proposed as stand alone armor. I don't think this is what is being discussed, rather that a gambeson garment type of padded leather existed,to be worn under mail. The presence of leather would not make the combination any stronger against thrusts nor bone crushing blows, but would go a long way in preserving warmth in cold damp climates.
Since we do know, thanks Nick, that Vikings did trade for skins with their own northern neighbours, it just makes sense that they would use these skins to optimum use, especially when under the obligation to add freezing metal to the mix.
Z
As for the role played by kangaroos, well, they seem to be better understood by people who play and reenact in warmer climes, people I will no doubt soon envy as the thermometer dips below zero. Cheers. JC

[Nick Trueman]

No worries Jean

They certainly did trade with Lapps theres no doubt. Furs were such a prized commodity to the Norse, not only for there own use but for further trade south along the Russian river trade routes. The Fins developed a much stronger bond with the Norse and prized raw bronze which they also traded for furs, pelt, skins etc. The Finns prized bronze over silver? I cannot answer this.

Stronger ties developed with the Finns than the Ugrian tribes in this area. The Finish culture certainly was strongly influenced by Norse artistic taste. jewelry and sword hilts prove this....I believe Albion was making or has already produced a Finish sword that shows clear Norse influence? With the Ugrian tribes It may simply come down to language barriers or maybe a healthy dose of mistrust? This is something i will need to do further reading on.

As for the armour discussion, everyone is entitled to a opinion and not everyone is going to agree. Im going to leave it at that as I think I have added enough reasons for my argument. they are valid and backed by archaeology. Off coarse no science is perfect, but I feel it is more satisfying for me than speculation.

Thanks Jean

Nick

[Mikael Ranelius]

Nick, the Ugrian peoples like the Khanty and Mansi lived (live) further east, east of the river Volga towards western Siberia. We know they had contact with the Slavs and eastern Finns (such as the Mari, Komi and Mordvins), but I don't think they had much direct contact with the Norse or western (Baltic) Finns (although I know of a Scandinavian sword found in an Ugrian grave, very interesting).

Jean-Carle, the discussion was originally about the existence of stand-alone leather armour, with the existence of padded arming coats as a side-discussion. If the Norse would have wanted extra warm fur coats under their armour, they would not have needed to buy (probably expensive) reindeer hides from the Saami, but could have used other kinds of pelts such as sheep, goat or moose that was more easily available. Then, fur clothing is not very suitable for damp weather, as it is easily damaged by moist. Nevertheless, we know that fur-lined coats/tunics and cloaks were used, but certainly they were not intentionally made as some kind of armour (although wearing a thick fur-lined woolen tunic under your mail shirt might have worked somewhat like a padded gambeson)

[Anders Nilsson]

Nick Trueman

Very nice picture of the Finnish woman. Just one question, what is it that she´s got in the belt? Is it a bag or a large knife?

[Ville Vinje]

[Don Z]

it's mostly flash
the knife is pretty small

about the size of a pairing knife

[Nick Trueman]

Very off topic but here is the knife.

n

[Tony Peterson]

[Nick Trueman]

"The Sámi people are the indigenous people of northern Europe inhabiting Sápmi, which today encompasses parts of northern Sweden, Norway, Finland and the Kola Peninsula of Russia. Their ancestral lands span across an area the size of Sweden in the Nordic countries. The Sámi people are among the largest indigenous ethnic groups in Europe. Their languages are the Sámi languages, which are classified as Finnic in the Finno-Ugric group."

Map of the spread of the language.

Cheers

N

[Nick Trueman]

Tony

The knife and sheath in situ.

Cheers mate

N

[Tony Peterson]

Great stuff Nick,

Thanks for the intresting info and pictures

[Chris Gilman]

Since we are on the Finnish knife for a bit.
Here is a repro I made for My Finnish wife.

[Tony Peterson]

Very impressive Chris, thats one hell of a nice gift.

[Nick Trueman]

Tops job Chris

Should be more of this type of dedication.

Cheers

n

[Don Z]

i concur

that's some nice work

hell it's almost prettier than me

[Chase S-R]

[Chase S-R]

P.s. I also agree there is no evidence of gambesons worn under maille made of either leather or cloth, they do however seem logical as wearing no such garment is quite uncomforatable

[Chase S-R]

Oh and wearing a leather garment under your maille seems equally logical to wearing a cloth garment as the leather will not wear through as quickly as the cloth one

[Chad Arnow]

[Don Z]

as previously stated the topic was mainly about leather sewn together as standalone armour

brigandine or other similar constructions contain other things....like metal
i don't see it as being effective in ways other than we have primary archeological evidence for.

by effective i include the ability to move enough to defend oneself from as many blows as possible.....

i don't think anyone has said they never used leather gambesond under armour

i think the main problem was the enchanted reindeer leather jacket as armour or evidence for standalone leather armour.....

of course i may have misunderstood the topic completely.....