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Geoff Wood




Location: UK
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Apr, 2004 5:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:
This is the sort of thing we're looking to get insight on . What constitutes "being able to use it " ? .


Probably means different things to different folks. Could be,
I can wear it for a few hours at a time without too much damage to self , or,
I know that while wearing it it would protect me as much as an original would have done at the time, or,
I can use it in re-enactment and not get hurt too badly, or,
I can use it in re-enactment and get it by the authenticity Nazis, or,
I can slip it on for a few minutes to pose in front of the mirror and look cool.

I like to think that the first and second points matter most to me, but the last one has got to be in there somewhere, as I suggested in my earlier post. It's rather shallow, but what the heck.
Geoff
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Alexi Goranov
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Apr, 2004 5:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Geoff Wood wrote:
Allan Senefelder wrote:
This is the sort of thing we're looking to get insight on . What constitutes "being able to use it " ? .


Probably means different things to different folks. Could be,
I can wear it for a few hours at a time without too much damage to self , or,
I know that while wearing it it would protect me as much as an original would have done at the time, or,
I can get it by the authenticity Nazis.

I like to think that the first and second points matter most to me, but the last one has got to be in there somewhere, as I suggested in my earlier post. It's rather shallow, but what the heck.
Geoff


I have left the point that do it for me too. I would not mind getting different pieces of a harness from different makers, but they will all have to comply to the above criteria. And did I mention that I must be able to afford them Big Grin By "authenticity Nazis" I assume this means "period accurate".

Alexi
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Geoff Wood




Location: UK
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Apr, 2004 5:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alexi Goranov wrote:
[

By "authenticity Nazis" I assume this means "period accurate".

Alexi


A term I borrowed rather than invented. I take it to mean any specific group's imposed and (maybe) dogmatic version of period accurate.
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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Apr, 2004 5:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Harlan Hastings wrote:
"After all this is a sword and weapons forum."

I thought these forums were for the discussion of arms and armour ....

Gee whiz, did I miss another memo?!?!? Eek! Razz


It has been a L-O-N-G day in the office and I have few wits left about me.

Not the first mistake I've made overlooking something...not even the first mistake I've made today.

Guess the point I was trying to make is that there is more discussion in the forums I frequent about swords than there is about armour. This slows down the learning curve. Its something I could remedy but its not a priority right now. I don't want to repeat my buying mistakes, so I am taking things slow. Wink

When I first jumped into collecting, armour seemed like to big a committment (even cheap stuff). Being married and on a tight budget at the time, the first sword was an easier sell. But armour? My wife? When she didn't have a house of her own? NO way! I've gotten her accustomed to the swords and she now wants me to buy armour. Still its taken quite a while and she has her house now. I suspect my wife is not that unique as far a spouses go. Getting into serious sword collecting was a gradual process. One that did not cause marital or financial strain becuase it was gradual AND it could be kept out of sight and out of mind until everyone decided I was not that eccentric.

Now that I've cut my teeth on swords, I've changed. I've seen original weapons and armour and my eye for detail and quality has improved (not that its great but it is better). Inadequacies I accepted in my first sword I will not accept in anything I'm collecting now.

Anyway I'm just trying to give honest insight into ME; there is a slight chance it might be good marketing information because I don't think I'm unique.

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Apr, 2004 6:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cost is still a constant theme. Does cost mean "I have to have it all " , " I have to have it all at once " or "I have to have it all custom?

Alexi's comment about different parts of a harness from different makers is interesting as it would make it more "accurate"
especially where German manufacturers were concerned ( it was common for armourers to be made a master in only
one particular peice of a harness so a whole suit would have parts from many different makers . Jeff Johnsons harness
is a good modern example of this ) . Would having an armour made with a variety of pieces from different makers make
armour more collectible? If the price issue is based on " it has to be custom " I suppose not .
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Alexi Goranov
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Apr, 2004 7:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:
Cost is still a constant theme. Does cost mean "I have to have it all " , " I have to have it all at once " or "I have to have it all custom?

Alexi's comment about different parts of a harness from different makers is interesting as it would make it more "accurate"
especially where German manufacturers were concerned ( it was common for armourers to be made a master in only
one particular peice of a harness so a whole suit would have parts from many different makers . Jeff Johnsons harness
is a good modern example of this ) . Would having an armour made with a variety of pieces from different makers make
armour more collectible? If the price issue is based on " it has to be custom " I suppose not .


I am afraid in my case cost means "have to have it" in general. Collecting piece by peace, looking for the best price of a particular item helps a bit but it is still a tough journey. I think even for people like me (who are not interested in complete plate harness) it does not get much easier. A rivetted mail hauberg that comes close to historical parameters costs an arm and a leg. I am not even talking about Erik Schmid's stuff.

I hope that I will eventually acquire a hauberg, a basinet with visor and aventail, plate armor for the legs and arms, a gambeson, arming cap, maybe even a brigantine and mail garments for the feet. If one were to put price tags on these items individually, one will easily spend several thousand dollars, and over 10 thousand if I go with top-of-the-line stuff like E. Schmid's mail garments and A&A custom pigface-basinet (~$3000) . As a graduate student I cannot afford that at once (or at all), so I have to go piece by piece, and that is ONLY if I am really determined, and serious about getting armour, which many people might not be.

Add to that the list of weapons that I would like to have (not all of which are swords) ...............and what should I get first?

Aaaaaaa....why wasn't I born rich......and beautiful..........


This is just my personal attitude,

Alexi
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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Apr, 2004 9:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:
Cost is still a constant theme. Does cost mean "I have to have it all " , " I have to have it all at once " or "I have to have it all custom?


Could mean any of the options.

Speaking only for myself, it does not have to be custom but it does have to work together with minimal user intervention. In short, it needs to be semi-idiot proof. I also don't want to have to retrofit everything as I get it to end up with a working kit. A single source have it all purchase seems to be the easiest way to assure this. So the cost problem becomes an issue of what to start with, who to start with, what to get now, what to get later, or whether to just plunge for everything.

One idea that might make things less daunting for me is to have example period appropriate full/partial kits (or kit recommendations), and maybe upgradable starter armour recommendations. I find it a bit difficult to visualize some of the potential combinations.

Since I really don't know where the best place is to start, its easy not to start at all.

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Apr, 2004 10:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If I understand right what your thinking of is kind of the same thing the illustrations in Osprey books present . A sort
of blurry blue print for a paricular era or nationality in an era to give an idea of what was in use to formulate what
kit you would be inclined to put together . Sort of a catalog of various period choices ?
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Apr, 2004 10:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is this something that would be appealing to others out there ?
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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Apr, 2004 10:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:
If I understand right what your thinking of is kind of the same thing the illustrations in Osprey books present . A sort
of blurry blue print for a paricular era or nationality in an era to give an idea of what was in use to formulate what
kit you would be inclined to put together . Sort of a catalog of various period choices ?


Would help me at least.

Maybe some roadmaps to get to the end of the blurry blue print too if that makes any sense.

I'm sure like everything else the first piece sucks you into getting the rest. The trick is getting me to take the initial plunge and that may be a function of timing. Probably because I know once I start I'll not be content with something only for decoration, even if that's all it ever is. Big Grin

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
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Geoff Wood




Location: UK
Joined: 31 Aug 2003

Posts: 634

PostPosted: Sat 17 Apr, 2004 1:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:
If I understand right what your thinking of is kind of the same thing the illustrations in Osprey books present . A sort
of blurry blue print for a paricular era or nationality in an era to give an idea of what was in use to formulate what
kit you would be inclined to put together . Sort of a catalog of various period choices ?


That would be educational, and probably tempting.
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Steve Fabert





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PostPosted: Sat 17 Apr, 2004 5:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:
If I understand right what your thinking of is kind of the same thing the illustrations in Osprey books present . A sort
of blurry blue print for a paricular era or nationality in an era to give an idea of what was in use to formulate what
kit you would be inclined to put together . Sort of a catalog of various period choices ?


Yes, I think it is extremely helpful to potential buyers to have some representative illustrations of what is "standard" for a given century and ethnicity of knight. Just labeling a set of armor Gothic or Milanese is not only not helpful, but downright misleading, because this can lead someone to believe that only German or Italian knights would have worn it. What is needed is a display of what would be 'typical' for the early Hundred Years War, or the War of the Roses, or the Third Crusade, et cetera.

To anyone who is not both a history buff and an owner of several Osprey books (and even for quite a few of people who have all that at hand) it is very hard to determine what piece "goes with" what other pieces. Just as I would never want to mismatch an Austrian helmet with a Prussian uniform if I collected Napoleonic gear, my goal is to have the armor components match one another in historical context.

This is one of the reasons that I found the layout at the Valentine Armoury website helpful - they show variations of full kit that belong together in the same era, and describe at least a little bit of the ethnic origins of the wearers of different styles. So it is comparatively easy to decide what to buy to be repesentative of a French knight in 1400, or a German knight of the same era.

Most of my own choices for armor are the result of study of the miniatures made by Verlinden, many of which are scale models of the Osprey illustrations. The Verlinden website has excellent photos of their finished scale models. Photos of a three-dimensional, fully painted figure wearing the full kit really tell a buyer so much more than any photo of a single piece of ironwork.
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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Sat 17 Apr, 2004 12:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To piggy back on Steve's post, if you are talking production one size fits many pieces, product reference numbers to build the kit would be helpful to. Also recommended accessories.
"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Sat 17 Apr, 2004 5:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Harlan and are have been talking today about what you guys have said . It sound like a big component is that you folks would like more information . When and where items were used , what items go together with what and what sorts
of gear would complete your kit . Does this sound right ?

This is good keep this stuff comming .
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Steve Fabert





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PostPosted: Wed 21 Apr, 2004 12:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:
When and where items were used , what items go together with what and what sorts
of gear would complete your kit . Does this sound right ?


Even a link to a page like this one would be very helpful for any potential buyer of armor piece-by-piece: http://www.heretic.faithweb.com/heretic.htm
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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Fri 23 Apr, 2004 8:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I looked at Valentine Armouries today and they have e few sets that are organized as little this way in that they show the set and give a part/price breakout. However they do not put things in context and really only provide armour info. Adding appropriate accessories and costume elements, perhaps via stategic parnership would really be something that would add value to me.

Also Steve, thanks for that link. Cool site.

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Fri 23 Apr, 2004 9:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

All this talk about armour suddenly seems to have kindled a growing fascination on my part. Something I'm not sure I really needed! WTF?!

Perhaps that's part of the trick, get people talking and thinking about the stuff?

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy


Last edited by Joe Fults on Fri 23 Apr, 2004 11:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Fri 23 Apr, 2004 9:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Truthfully , marketing is part of the inquiery as we're looking to know what would get you guys interested but part for me is also a curiosity about why an overall interest isn't there . When I collected it was all original period pieces but I had some of everything swords , armour, from Europe , India , Persia( Afghanistan, Pakistan ect. Once known as Transoxania ) . I was fascinated by all of it wheather it was pole arms , wheellock firearms it didn't matter .It would seem to me ( and this is just me ) that there should be that same level of curiousity in newly made products and i'm perplaxed at why this is not so .
It helps us to bring you guys what you would like to see if we can learn what interests the collector of new products and
why it interests them .
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Steve Fabert





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PostPosted: Sat 24 Apr, 2004 6:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:
I was fascinated by all of it wheather it was pole arms , wheellock firearms it didn't matter .It would seem to me ( and this is just me ) that there should be that same level of curiousity in newly made products and i'm perplaxed at why this is not so .


While there may be others like yourself who are fascinated by the whole range of eras and objects, it's much more common to see people who focus on a particular place, time, and/or ethnicity. Some people are Civil War buffs but are not interested in Napoleonic material, some are Roman fans but not medieval, et cetera. At various times I have been especially interested in the Roman era, Crusades, Hundred Years' War, Wars of the Roses, and the Napoleonic era, but not all of them at the same time. And for most of my life I have been more interested in aviation than in any of the land warfare topics.

If you watch the pattern of book sales you can get a feel for which era and locale is currently most popular., and how regularly the focus of interest shifts. Since Amazon.com rates books by popularity, you can see in a click whether more people are buying books about medieval warfare than the American Civil War, for example.

A desire to hold a sword from a particular time and place can come upon anyone in a moment of curiosity, but the sort of intense interest that convinces a person to buy a full suit of armor takes years of reading, and watching, and thinking, to the point of near obsession. The more exposure there is to the hardware in books and films, the more likely there will be a fair number of people who become sufficiently immersed in the material to want to buy examples.

I read the history of swords and ancient weapons for years without contemplating owning any of it. When I learned almost by accident that people were actually building good quality replicas of ancient edged weapons I was astounded, and have been merrily investing my spare change in those items ever since. I sometimes wonder how many people are not involved in the hobby merely because they have no idea that these items are commercially available. Many visitors to my office, where I display most of my collection, express complete surprise when I tell them that these objects can be bought easily via the internet. They have never seen a local sword and armor shop, and so assume that nobody makes them.
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Sat 24 Apr, 2004 4:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So if I understand what your saying right Steve basically its easy to collect swords because theres no book work . You
like it, you buy it, your done . One can simply buy a sword because one likes the look or the feel with no background knowledge whatsoever but some basic level of study has to be done before an armour purchase can be made . Am I
close ?
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