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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Mon 29 Sep, 2008 7:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Second hand knowledge, but from Gordon Frye: He told me here and in private communications in the past that essentially 16th century musketry put more emphasis on aimed individual fire than in the mass unaimed volley fire of the 18th century that valued rapidity of fire ( relative rapidity that is ).

Possibly the 16th century liking for aimed fire was related to precision use of the crossbow and longbow ? Although mass unaimed arrow volleys where certainly used at longer ranges against massed targets.

Oh, the ball used in 16th century smoothbore was tighter fitting to the bore size giving accuracy close to what would expect today with a 12 gauge shotgun used with slugs and this is around 200 yards.

The 18 century ball was undersized to the bore to speed loading and to make loading easier when the bores started to get fouled after a dozen shots or so. ( Would rattle around down the bore and be much less accurate even in the hands of a good shot ).

Anyway, maybe Gordon will confirm this with the appropriate sources. Wink Big Grin

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Hunter B.




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PostPosted: Mon 29 Sep, 2008 8:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:


Oh, the ball used in 16th century smoothbore was tighter fitting to the bore size giving accuracy close to what would expect today with a 12 gauge shotgun used with slugs and this is around 200 yards.


Jean, just out of curiosity, what type of shotgun slugs are you talking about, and just how accurate? A smooth bore shotgun firing a "Foster" slug (rifled slug) is good for 3-5 MOA @ 50 yards, tops. Even modern slug designs or adaptations thereof (Brenneke, Remington Bucks*, etc) will at best give you 3" groups at 100 yards. Better accuracy can be achieved using saboted slugs (about 1.5" MOA) but even then this is from a bench rest in "perfect" condition. This is in a modern weapon with excellent harmonics with good reliable powder. That kind of accuracy would have been greatly reduced with the weapons and methods used at the time. Hitting a moving target in combat at 200 yards is difficult today with even the best of weapons, during the 16th century with a smooth bore matchlock with that smokey powder? I would say it's greatly outside the realm of possibility. That's why sharpshooters were always found in front of the main body, upwind, or firing from elevated positions.



Quote:
The 18 century ball was undersized to the bore to speed loading and to make loading easier when the bores started to get fouled after a dozen shots or so. ( Would rattle around down the bore and be much less accurate even in the hands of a good shot ).



Actually, the fouling wouldn't have caused the balls to rattle around, but the opposite. Lead from the ball and residue and non-ignited powder would build up and actually JAM the ball in, eventually making it impossible to load. To aid in this later many preloaded paper cartridges were greased (which, by the way, was one of the causes of the Sepoy Rebellion). You were sort of right, however. They would rattle around before any fouling and gradually be reduced as more build up took place. This is what lead to "patching" the round. This accomplished two things: First, it allowed reloading with greater speed and second (much more important) reduced the effects of fouling.

Also, I'd check up on where you got the "dozen shots or so" because your average Redcoat could fire about 2- 3 shots a minute (this didn't change much through the 1860s). What was the greater limitation on rate of fire was the need to cool the rifles off at least during the 15th and 16th centuries.

As stated by Martín de Eguiluz in his treatise "Milicia, discurso y regla militar" (written in 1592):

Quote:
Skirmishing should be practiced skill of the Captain and his men, if thus prepared they can inflict heavy loss on an enemy without much themselves. See how the enemy deploys himself, proudly and without objective or calmly and in order. Take out three rows of five arcabuzeros each from the first group of troops. Space rows fifteen paces apart, with three paces apart in rows. Without haste. Fire first row; without turning heads, make way for the next row, marching backwards to the left, then turning side to the enemy (the thin side of the body). Each man is to have five or six shot in his mouth, and two lighted cords. Load, ram,{ prime, insert match, cover pan}cock. Move forward to fire, as before. fire from the same place, use sight of weapons, aiming a bit high, but right at the enemy; close left eye. Each row fires at most four shots, or five; after that the weapons must be cooled and the men rested. (otherwise the ball will get soft in the hot barrel.) If more skirmishing is needed, call out three or more rows of five, letting the old men retire.




*The Remington slug actually has a permanently attached stabilizer wad which is what increases its accuracy so much over standard rifled slugs and sabots.
.

A good read can be found here on pages 14-19 it delves on a little bit into some of the more obvious problems with firing matchlocks accurately (lack of ergonomics and poor weapon design).

I never thought years of reloading and pouring over ballistics tables would come in handy on a sword forum of all places. Cool
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Mon 29 Sep, 2008 8:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hunter B. wrote:
Jean Thibodeau wrote:


Oh, the ball used in 16th century smoothbore was tighter fitting to the bore size giving accuracy close to what would expect today with a 12 gauge shotgun used with slugs and this is around 200 yards.


Jean, just out of curiosity, what type of shotgun slugs are you talking about, and just how accurate?

Quote:
The 18 century ball was undersized to the bore to speed loading and to make loading easier when the bores started to get fouled after a dozen shots or so. ( Would rattle around down the bore and be much less accurate even in the hands of a good shot ).



Actually, the fouling wouldn't have caused the balls to rattle around, but the opposite. Lead from the ball and residue and non-ignited powder would build up and actually JAM the ball in, eventually making it impossible to load. To aid in this later many preloaded paper cartridges were greased (which, by the way, was one of the causes of the Sepoy Rebellion). You were sort of right, however. They would rattle around before any fouling and gradually be reduced as more build up took place. This is what lead to "patching" the round. This accomplished two things: First, it allowed reloading with greater speed and second (much more important) reduced the effects of fouling.

Also, I'd check up on where you got the "dozen shots or so" because your average Redcoat could fire about 2- 3 shots a minute (this didn't change much through the 1860s). What was the greater limitation on rate of fire was the need to cool the rifles off at least during the 15th and 16th centuries.


*The Remington slug actually has a permanently attached stabilizer wad which is what increases its accuracy so much over standard rifled slugs and sabots.


I never thought years of reloading and pouring over ballistics tables would come in handy on a sword forum of all places. Cool


Sort of edited down your post to help clarity, so here are my comments:

1) Slug accuracy: Purely anecdotal but I have used slugs to knock down metal silhouette chickens at around 100 yards shooting standing and metal silhouette pigs at maybe 150 yards fairly easily using Brenneke slugs in a Benelli semi auto or a Remington 870 ( This was a long time ago so the details are fuzzy ). ( Note: After walking the slugs into the targets it was easy once the range was found ).

2) Oh, I meant that because the ball was smaller than the bore the ball would remain easier to load in spite of fouling for a greater number of shots. The figure 12 shots or so was just a guess when a little cleaning of the bore might start to be a good idea: I might be off by a factor of 2X or 3X or maybe it was less like 6 shots ?

3) The dozen shots I didn't mean a dozen shots per minute, only my guess when fouling starts being a consideration.

4) Your point about overheating was very interesting and something I hadn't considered.

So basically what you wrote I fully agree with: I may just have expressed myself without enough precision and you added information I wasn't aware of, thanks.

Anyway, hitting a moving target at 200 yards with a shotgun slug would be very difficult but a target at 200 yards would be far from safe and volley fire at that range at a group of closely space targets would more like suppressive fire than pinpoint sniper fire. So out to 200 yards there would be some effect and the fire far from futile, but 100 yards or 50 yards would be the limit for accurate useful fire in my opinion.

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Hunter B.




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PostPosted: Mon 29 Sep, 2008 9:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:

Sort of edited down your post to help clarity, so here are my comments:

1) Slug accuracy: Purely anecdotal but I have used slugs to knock down metal silhouette chickens at around 100 yards shooting standing and metal silhouette pigs at maybe 150 yards fairly easily using Brenneke slugs in a Benelli semi auto or a Remington 870 ( This was a long time ago so the details are fuzzy ).


Hitting stationary silhouettes on with a modern weapon with a 12 gauge is definitely possible, if you're using the right loads. My guess is they were probably saboted. Still, that's a long way from a smoothbore matchlock standing up using coarse black powder in a battlefield situation.

Quote:
2) Oh, I meant that because the ball was smaller than the bore the ball would remain easier to load in spite of fouling for a greater number of shots. The figure 12 shots or so was just a guess when a little cleaning of the bore might start to be a good idea: I might be off by a factor of 2X or 3X ?


Honestly it depends. The quality of the powder has a lot to do with it. At the time, from my understanding, the typical combat load for a rifleman was around 50rds (16th century). I would say then that this is probably a good basis for what they were expected to fire during the course of a battle. Maybe more, maybe less, but 50 is certainly within the realm of possibility.

Quote:
3) The dozen shots I didn't mean a dozen shots per minute, only my guess when fouling starts being a consideration.
I know, my point was simply at that rate most battles wouldn't have lasted much beyond 5 minutes.

Quote:
So basically what you wrote I fully agree with: I may just have expressed myself without enough precision.

Anyway, hitting a moving target at 200 yards with a shotgun slug would be very difficult but a target at 200 yards would be far from safe and volley fire at that range at a group of closely space targets would more like suppressive fire than pinpoint sniper fire. So out to 200 yards there would be some effect and the fire far from futile, but 100 yards or 50 yards would be the limit for accurate useful fire in my opinion.


In the link I quoted you the estimate was at best 50% of musket balls fired down range in the late 18th early 19th century would be considered "effective" at 100 yards (in volley) with 15% being the more likely number. That is including misfires, improper loading, poor accuracy and the Dread God Murphy. So at 200m, you'd be better off throwing stones or hurling harsh words. Especially when you think of the effect of just how smokey the battlefield would get after 2-3 volleys. By the time the enemy cavalry (or infantry for that matter) got into your real effective range, you'd not be able to see them.

If you haven't had the chance you should go sit in at a 19th century battle reenactment the amount of smoke is unbelievable. While the weapons may have changed (mostly in the department of reliability), the tactics for the use of matchlocks and muskets remained relatively unchanged from the time of Gustavus Adolphus until just after the American War between the States.

You're pretty much spot on when you guess that 100m was the max effective range with real battlefield effectiveness being more in the neighborhood of 50m.

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David Evans




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PostPosted: Tue 30 Sep, 2008 1:32 am    Post subject: Musket firing         Reply with quote

A few points.

Smoothbore snaphuance and matchlock at targets. I've fired ball at 100m Fig11's and average 9 out of 10 hits without too much trouble, you can actually see the ball flying so correcting aim isn't too hard!

A 16th and 17th Century body of Shot doesn't fire by controlled platoon volleys, firing is usually done by ranks, retiring to the rear once fired. A single person may only fire once a minute, but the body itself may manage 6 rounds in that time.
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Hunter B.




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PostPosted: Tue 30 Sep, 2008 9:30 am    Post subject: Re: Musket firing         Reply with quote

David Evans wrote:
A few points.

Smoothbore snaphuance and matchlock at targets. I've fired ball at 100m Fig11's and average 9 out of 10 hits without too much trouble, you can actually see the ball flying so correcting aim isn't too hard!


IThat's interesting.. While a low velocity weapon like an arquebus would be easier to see down range, typically an occurence like that is reserved for much longer ranges. A tip if you're shooting next time: most folks use the point of impact to adjust their fire, not the arc the bullet travels in.


Quote:
A 16th and 17th Century body of Shot doesn't fire by controlled platoon volleys, firing is usually done by ranks, retiring to the rear once fired. A single person may only fire once a minute, but the body itself may manage 6 rounds in that time.


The rate of fire for "Firing by ranks" was still the same, 2-3 shots per man, per minute. The difference between firing platoons and firing by ranks was that the latter allowed you to keep up a steady amount of shot on the enemy while the former gave the enemy pause between salvos. Both generated massive amounts of smoke and cut down visibility on the battlefield in short order (even worse if artillery was being used).

“It is the loose ends with which men hang themselves.”
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Helge B.





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PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2008 5:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Please do tell when & where all of these the alledged successfull hussar charges against Gustav Adolf's Swedish infantry took place.


Actually I had the Battle of Warsaw of 1656 in mind, which was after the time of Gustav Adolf. The hussars launched a successful attack against the swedish left flank despite receiving heavy fire from artillery and muskets. The Polish lost the battle though.

Another notable incident of a succesfull cavalry attack against superior firepower is the charge of the light brigade at the Battle of Balaclava. Despite getting fire from three sides they reached the enemy cannons and drove the russians away from the redoubt (for a short time only of course). Although they had to ride all the way back, they 'only' sufferd 50% casualties. The attack was a disaster, but I would have expected a total annihilation of the unit.
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David Evans




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PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2008 5:57 am    Post subject: Re: Musket firing         Reply with quote

Hunter B. wrote:
David Evans wrote:
A few points.

Smoothbore snaphuance and matchlock at targets. I've fired ball at 100m Fig11's and average 9 out of 10 hits without too much trouble, you can actually see the ball flying so correcting aim isn't too hard!


IThat's interesting.. While a low velocity weapon like an arquebus would be easier to see down range, typically an occurence like that is reserved for much longer ranges. A tip if you're shooting next time: most folks use the point of impact to adjust their fire, not the arc the bullet travels in.


Quote:
A 16th and 17th Century body of Shot doesn't fire by controlled platoon volleys, firing is usually done by ranks, retiring to the rear once fired. A single person may only fire once a minute, but the body itself may manage 6 rounds in that time.


The rate of fire for "Firing by ranks" was still the same, 2-3 shots per man, per minute. The difference between firing platoons and firing by ranks was that the latter allowed you to keep up a steady amount of shot on the enemy while the former gave the enemy pause between salvos. Both generated massive amounts of smoke and cut down visibility on the battlefield in short order (even worse if artillery was being used).


Go 6 deep with 12 men per rank, file off to the right, under control . Each rank moves up the firing point once the rank in front has cleared the front. We manged a steady 6 ranks a minute for the first 3 or 4 minutes without too much trouble.........started to get a bit ragged at that point so we slowed down. With fresh barrels, all made ready I'd expect something similar in the 17th Century, but probably only managing a couple of minutes before having to slow down.
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Paul Kenworthy




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PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2008 9:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The combat effectiveness of musket fire is mostly (but not completely) conditioned by two factors: loading speed and muzzle velocity.

Muzzle loading infantry shoulder arms were inherently slow to load. This presented an opportunity for forces with sufficient mobility to cross what 19th-century military theorists called the “deadly ground” and close with the shot while they were reloading. Soldiers addressed this inherent vulnerability four ways:

1. They developed firearms that were easier to load and fire. A percussion lock shoulder arm is faster to load than a flintlock, which is faster than a dog lock, which is faster than a snaphaunce, which is faster than a match lock. 16th-century matchlocks took over a minute to load and fire, while 19th-century expanding ball rifles took about 20 seconds. One of the most significant steps along this path is the introduction of the iron rammer at the end of the 17th-century. You have to load more slowly with a wooden scouring stick to make sure you don’t break it and disarm yourself. The result of these technological changes is that the volume of fire per unit time goes up by a factor of four between the 16th century and the end of the muzzle loading era in the mid 19th century.

2. They developed standardized weapon handling drills. Starting with Johann van Nassau-Siegen and continuing right up to the present day, soldiers practice standardized loading and firing drills to improve their speed and reliability. What makes muzzle loaders so slow to load is that there are a large number of steps that have to be performed in exactly the right order; if you miss a step or do it out of order the gun will not fire and most likely will need to have the charge drawn – a slow, laborious process. The effectiveness of this approach probably reached its peak in the Prussian army under Frederick II when the skill at weapons drill of the average infantry man gave his army almost a two to one advantage in volume of fire over their adversaries.

3. They developed tactical formations to maximize volume of fire. Volley fire, counter marching, firing in closed ranks, &c., are all methods of maximizing the amount of fire put on a given area per unit time by muzzle loaders. All of these formations become instantly obsolete when the muzzle loader becomes obsolete. There is a direct correlation between how easy the weapon is to load and what formation maximizes volume of fire. Match lock-armed formations are frequently 8 to 10 ranks deep and deeper than they are wide, while percussion lock formations are typically two ranks deep and much, much wider than deep.

4. They combine the shot with other weapons that don’t share the same reloading requirement. Pikes are always loaded and they work just fine in the rain. The most significant development in this area is the invention of the socket bayonet some time around 1670. From that time on, every musketeer is a pike man and every pike man is a musketeer. Pike are not made obsolete by improved firearms; they are made obsolete by the socket bayonet. Pike disappear from the European battlefield 200 years before cavalry do.

By the way, this issue of loading speed was not new to the Renaissance; the big advantage the longbow had over the crossbow was loading speed. A crossbow bolt has just as much range and stopping power as a longbow arrow, but you can’t get three of them in the air before the first one lands.

The second major component of the combat effectiveness of musket fire is muzzle velocity. This is because muzzle velocity is the key contributor to combat firing accuracy. 19th century examples are particularly instructive because that was when Captain Minié’s invention caused extensive research into the ballistic properties of muzzle loading firearms. The American Civil War saw .75” smooth bores fighting side by side with .44” self-primed metallic cartridge breach loaders. All of the research they did back then is available to us today.

Combat shooting is not target shooting. Muskets have low muzzle velocity by modern standards. Low velocity means that the ball travels in a very curved trajectory making accurate range estimation critical. A 17th-century musket ball will kill a man at over 500 meters, but you have very little chance of actually hitting him at that range. The important point I want to make here is that rifling a low velocity gun will do very little to increase your chance of hitting your target. In other words, improving the target accuracy of the rifle doesn’t improve its combat effectiveness nearly as much as increasing its velocity does. Comparing the aiming problems of a modern, 7.62mm high-velocity round to the M-1855 .58” expanding base conicoidal ball shows why.

“For instance, if a gun is reliable for a six-inch bulls eye at 100 yards, I deem it of trifling consequence whether the average distance of its shots from the central point of that bull’s eye is an inch more or less; for, except with a dead rest, not one man in a thousand but would make a greater variation than that, in firing a series of shots with the most perfect weapon that could be made. This statement will be doubted by very many persons who know nothing practically about rifle shooting, but who entertain a vague idea of the existence of a race of men somewhere “out west,” who can shave off either ear of a squirrel at 100 yards without otherwise injuring him. But any experienced rifleman will call it a superior performance for off-hand shooting with open sights, to put a series of shots into a six-inch ring at that distance, and a moment’s reflection will show that such work is quite nice enough for any sporting service. For it would be pretty certain death to a partridge, which I take it is as small game as any rifleman would ever spend ammunition upon, and there are very few men who would ever shoot at such game at more than half that distance. This assertion will also be scouted by many readers, even among men accustomed to shooting, but it is true, nevertheless, as any ordinary sportsman may convince himself by taking pains to pace the distance of some of his shots at game, which (unless he has been in the habit of making such measurements) he will find is rarely so much as he thinks it is.” (H. W. S. Cleveland, “Hints to Riflemen.” New York: D. Appleton and Company, 1864. pp. 200-2001.)

A six-inch group at 100 yards equals an angular width of 1.67 milliradians. The width of a man’s shoulders at 300 yards is 1.85 mils, so if you can hold that group you can reliably hit a man at 300 yards, assuming two things. First you have to be able to see the man. That is not a trivial problem in combat. The US Army Operations Research Office discovered during Project SALVO that the probability of noticing a man standing at 300 yards under field conditions was under 20%. Civil War soldiers made it a little easier by bunching together, and waving flags and yelling, but that still didn’t make it a given that you could see your target.

Secondly, you had to correctly estimate range. As Cleveland points out, and as modern studies have confirmed, even experienced shooters tend to over-estimate range, usually by about 50%. In other words most shooters think a target at 50 yards is at 75 yards, a target at 100 yards is at 150 yards, and a target at 200 yards is at 300 yards. Because the ball drops faster the farther it gets from the gun, correctly estimating range gets more important the greater the range. For example, modern, high-velocity round like a 165 gr. flat based .30” bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2,700 f/s and a max point blank of 225 yards will drop 7 inches from 225 to 300 yards, 16 inches from 300 to 400 yards, 27 inches between 400 and 500 yards, 38 inches between 500 and 600 yards, 52 inches between 600 and 700 yards, 70 inches between 700 and 800 yards, 100 inches between 800 and 900 yards, and 120 inches between 900 and 1,000 yards (the max range of the ladder sight on a M-1855 rifle musket). Unfortunately, the Ordnance Dept report on the M-1855 only gives the ballistic trajectory for 200 yards, so I can’t directly compare the drop on a Springfield to the drop of a modern round. However, it does give the sight elevations for different ranges. To aim at 200 yards, you elevate the sight 4.31 mils. (Milliradians as a unit of angular measure hadn’t been invented at the time of the Civil War. They’re what we use nowadays because the math is easier with them than when using degrees. I had to convert the 1855 Ordnance Dept data into mils.) To aim at 300 yards, you elevate the sight an additional 4.92 mils. To aim at 400 yards you elevate the sight another 5.54 mils. To aim at 500 yards you elevate another 6.76 mils. A 5’ 8” tall man standing at 300 yards is 12.6 mils high. The difference between the 200 yard sight elevation and the 400 yard elevation is 10.46 mils, or almost the height of a man. That’s why it was so easy for an untrained observer who over-estimates range by 50% to overshoot a man-sized target with an accurate gun. The gun’s not the problem.

For our period, a perfectly accurate low-velocity gun aimed at the belt buckle (or girdlestead, as they would have said) of a man at 350 yards will pass clean over the head of a man on horse back positioned halfway between the shooter and target. In contrast, a NATO 7.62mm ball will be only 11 inches above the line of sight at the halfway point of its trajectory. This is one of the reasons why the linear formation is so effective in the muzzle loading era; most of the enemy’s shots are going to fall short or go long. The column solves the enemy’s range estimation problem for him. The tactical commander on the 17th-century battlefield has to decide if he has sufficient force size to make the area fire of long range firing at cavalry effective given that most of the shot is actually going to go long, not short. If he lets the cavalry get closer before he fires, the range estimation problem becomes geometrically smaller, but the greater the chance that the musketeers will be caught reloading. Therein lies the dilemma.

By the way, cannon doesn’t have this range estimation problem. Because a cannon ball has so much inertia, the cannoneer deliberately fires his round shot short and lets it bounce into the enemy formation.

Best Regards,

Paul
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Paul Kenworthy




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PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2008 1:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The exposure of cavalry to shot is dependant on the speed with which the shot can reload versus the distance the cavalry can cover during that same time.

The numbers look like this:

Horses walk at approximately 3 – 4 mph (4.83 – 6.44 kph)
Trot at 8 – 10 mph (12.87 – 16.09 kph)
Canter at 10 – 17 mph (16.09 – 27.36 kph)
Gallop at 17 – 30 mph (27.36 – 48.28 kph)

(Thoroughbreds can gallop at 40 mph and quarter horses can sprint at 50 mph, but I am ignoring racing horses.)

If it takes 1 minute to load a musket, cavalry can travel this far in that time:

Walk 88 – 117 yards (80 – 107 meters)
Trot 235 – 293 yards (215 – 268 meters)
Canter 293 – 499 yards (268 – 456 meters)
Gallop up to 880 yards (805 meters)

If it takes 20 seconds to load a musket, like it does in the 19th century, cavalry can travel this far:

Walk 29 – 39 yards (27 – 36 meters)
Trot 78 – 98 yards (72 – 89 meters)
Canter 98 – 166 yards (89 – 152 meters)
Gallop up to 293 yards (268 meters)

If the “deadly ground” is 300 yards wide, then cavalry can cover that whole distance at a trot in the time it takes to reload a matchlock, whereas cavalry could not cover it at a flat out gallop in the time it takes to reload a American Civil War rifle musket. In practice cavalry does not attack at one speed; they start out at a walk, transition to a trot when they come under fire, and break into a gallop just before contact. It is impossible to maintain a formation at the gallop, so you use that only when you are close enough that it doesn’t matter.

This is one of the reasons they used counter marching in the 17th-century. If you lined up in three ranks like typical Napoleonic infantry, but you only had matchlocks, you would get off exactly one volley. On the other hand, in the American Civil War where you could lay down harassing fire past 500 yards, you could get off four or five volleys with your percussion locks and still have your socket bayonets to deal with anyone who got through that. Part of the improvement in the 19th century is increased accuracy, but most of it is increased rate of fire. Counter marching is the only way to keep cavalry under fire for any length of time with slow loading weapons. As David points out, you can get a volley off every ten seconds that way, even though it will only be 1/6 the weight of shot compared to firing the Napoleonic way.

Best Regards,

Paul
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Daniel Staberg




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PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2008 3:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Helge B. wrote:


Actually I had the Battle of Warsaw of 1656 in mind, which was after the time of Gustav Adolf. The hussars launched a successful attack against the swedish left flank despite receiving heavy fire from artillery and muskets. The Polish lost the battle though.

Actually the hussar charge was neither successfull, nor exposed to heavy artillery or musket fire. The closes infantry was some 300-350 meters away which mean that the charge took place well outside musket range. While there was artillery it was spread out across the front of the Swedish army which prevented an effective concentration of fire.

The 300 hussars who made the charge manged to breakthrough and rout two Swedish cavalry regiments who employed poor tatics as both reigments recived the charge at the halt while firing pistols. The hussars then got stuck when they hit the 2nd Swedish where they were countercharged by additonal reserved squadrons supported by dismounted dragoons. Beate the hussars fled back to their own line. A fine display of courage on part of the Lithuanian hussars but the attack achived nothing of military value and had no impact on the course of the battle.

Erik Dahlberg was present at the battle, this is how he drew the charge.
The hussar hit the squadrons next to the number "4" where a squadron in the 2nd line has wheeled to face the enemy.
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj72/Kapte...1656_2.jpg


Helge B. wrote:

Another notable incident of a succesfull cavalry attack against superior firepower is the charge of the light brigade at the Battle of Balaclava. Despite getting fire from three sides they reached the enemy cannons and drove the russians away from the redoubt (for a short time only of course). Although they had to ride all the way back, they 'only' sufferd 50% casualties. The attack was a disaster, but I would have expected a total annihilation of the unit.

Ok, first you say that the charge of the Lt. Bde. is an example of a "succesfull cavalry attack against superior firepower", a few sentences later it's a "disaster". If an attack is a disaster then it can hardly be successfull IMHO.

The Light Brigade suffered 41% killed and wounded but only 195 (29%) of the men had horses left after the charge. I.e the unit had been destoryed as a operational military formation. At that cost the outcome can't even be called "Phyrric", the only term possible is disastrous.


[/quote]
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Hunter B.




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PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2008 3:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Musket firing         Reply with quote

Excellent post Paul, especially on the horse information!
“It is the loose ends with which men hang themselves.”
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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2008 4:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

B. Stark wrote:
Well there is no doubt that pike fighting was a knock down drag out business...I'm impressed. To bad I can't find a copy to rent. Sad


you can get a copy on e-bay pretty readily.

inkothemgard!
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David Evans




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PostPosted: Fri 03 Oct, 2008 1:29 am    Post subject: Pike fighting Horse         Reply with quote

I was having a think last night about the way in which Pike divisions received Horse, more specifically the posture in which the pike received Horse. It struck me that the posture “Charge for Horse” was just simply too static and may never have been used on the battle field by any except freshly trained regiments of Foot. The reasoning that came to mind was simple. The Dutch codified drill postures during the 80 years war, resulting in Jacob de Gheyn's 'Exercise of Armes' published in 1607. This I think was the final result of some 40 plus years of warfare and probably depicted practises on the field in use of maybe the last 20 or more years. All three main weapons are shown in full and this manual remained the basis for drill to the end of the 17th Century. This book is the source for all drill used by most 17th Century re-enactment groups today. The other side of the coin as regards Dutch practise was far smaller Battalia units on the field against the Spanish Tericos. A Spanish Terico numbered about 3,000 men in quite a tight formation. The Dutch were never going to be able to raise enough men to go around head butting Terico’s one on one so they moved to smaller, slimmer units able to dance around a Terico.

The second point is the flanks of a Pike division weren’t left hanging in the air unsupported. The shot of a Battalia covered those flanks whilst the flanks of the Battalia were covered by the Battalia deployed in refused echelon. Given that Horse charge in a pretty much straight line and find it very difficult to manage 270 degrees adjustment on route to go from charging the front of a body to charging a flank, the flanks are fairly safe. Yes, the Horse can “wash” around the flanks but there’s not going to be any shock of impact. And getting too close to Foot armed with very heavy blunt clubbing weapons whilst damm near static on a horse is not going to be a good move.

I think that, in practise, an experienced Battalia received a charge of Horse with the shot firing on both flanks whilst retiring by ranks. The Pike charged and moved forward so that the shot were even further back from the front. Against all but the heaviest armoured of Horse this would work quite nicely. Galled by fire even as the Horse made contact and faced by upwards of 6 pike heads per horse, most Horse units would not complete the charge.

However, should a Battalia adopt “Charge for Horse” it’s a static blob on the field. Which means the Horse can stand off and nibble at the blob with pistols. Should a Terico lumber into range it’s going to get rolled over like a hedgehog on a Highway.
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Fri 03 Oct, 2008 5:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Helge B. wrote:
I think the chances for repelling a determined cavalry charge on open ground with firepower alone were quite low before the introduction of the minie ball. In the rare instances when this happened like at Nagashino field fortification or terrain killed the momentum of the cavalry charge. I can only think of Minden when the firepower of smoothbore muskets alone did the job.


Quote:
Actually I had the Battle of Warsaw of 1656 in mind, which was after the time of Gustav Adolf. The hussars launched a successful attack against the swedish left flank despite receiving heavy fire from artillery and muskets. The Polish lost the battle though.


I think Daniel has dealt adequately with this issue--much better than I can, in fact--and the only thing I really have to add is the fact that we've actually had a discussion about this subject before in a different thread:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=12934

and perhaps I ought to remind you of another thread you started, where Daniel had already debunked the myth of the husars overrunning infantry at Warsaw:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=12961

BTW, Nagashino isn't an easy battle to interpret. On one hand there's an ongoing scholarly debate about whether the Japanese ever developed effective, massed, lance-armed shock cavalry formations at all, and on the other hand the simple fact that the Oda army outnumbered the Takeda army by more than three to one might have assured an Oda victory regardless of any tactical asymmetry between the armies!

There were also plenty of instances where firearm-equipped infantry formations were perfectly capable of repelling cavalry charges with their fire alone.; to what Daniel has listed, I might add the Battle of Kluszyn--where the Polish hussars are often lauded for their ability to charge and reform ten times against a Swedish/Russian allied infantry position, neglecting the fact that the hussars had to reform because their charges were repulsed (i.e. failed) until they finally brought infantry and artillery support in for the eleventh attempt.

Even outside the pike-and-shot period, we see early 18th-century European infantry formations indoctrinated to repel a cavalry charge with a musket volley in an extended line. I seriously doubt that this tactical method would have become such a widespread standard if it wasn't sufficiently successful to be worth the bother of adopting it!

(We could go on endlessly about Napoleonic War-era infantry squares ripping up cavalry charges that came at them--or even the famous Thin Red Line incident in the Crimean war, where a (literally) thin line of British infantrymen armed with smoothbore muskets used a well-timed volley to repel a massed attack by previously victorious Russsian cavalrymen).


Quote:
If the musketeers/arquebusiers loose their last volley at maybe 50m they would not have much time to run anywhere before the cavalry catches up.


But if the Shot had the discipline to hold their volley until the enemy reached such a point-blank distance, the charging Horse would probably have been repulsed by the coordinated salvo!


Quote:
The only shelter for such a large body of men could have been the pike block itself. I just find it hard to visualize how they could have disperse among the pike especially since there were already arquebusiers at the sides of the square.


Again, you seem to be making the assumption that battles were fought on flat chessboards in perfect formations. Some of the Shot might have been detached on skirmishing duty, so they might have been out of the Horse's reach altogether (or had been ridden down earlier). Many would have been able to duck beneath the pikes; some more would have hid behind appropriate terrain; and I wouldn't tire to say that the Shot, if properly handled, might not have needed to hide behind the Pike anyway since they might have been able to repel the Horse solely with their fire!

BTW, the image you used to illustrate the Spanish tercio is probably wrong for the Rocroi period--the Spaniards at Rocroi probably used a much more linear formation than what the image shows.
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Fri 03 Oct, 2008 5:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Kenworthy wrote:
16th-century matchlocks took over a minute to load and fire,


By the end of the century, the matchlock loading process was a lot faster than this--I've never been quite able to match the 4- or 5-shot per minute flintlock rate of fire except through cheating (i.e. having a round alreadly loaded and ready to fire at the start of the minute), but three shots per minute is perfectly achievable with a matchlock arquebus for short periods of time. I'm not sure I'd want to try getting such a rate of fire with a full-sized 16th-century musket, though...

Basically, I'm just saying that we shouldn't underestimate the practicality of early gunpowder arms. I can't help speculatinf that early firearm loading processes took so long because the officers wanted the men to take so much time aiming before firing the shot, in contrast to later practices of loading and firing as much as possible with just the most cursory aim. Of course I'm not proposing that this could have been a sole cause--just to take an easy counterexample, the change from matchlocks to flintlocks certainly enabled a vast improvement in loading speed by giving the soldiers a weapon that didn't have to be cast about the body during the loading process (i.e. it could be kept at the right side all the time rather than having to be swung around to the right and left like a matchlock).


Quote:
You have to load more slowly with a wooden scouring stick to make sure you don’t break it and disarm yourself.


True. I once broke a scouring-stick in a speed-loading attempt with a caliver and had to spend the day whittling dow na new one. Wink


Quote:
They developed standardized weapon handling drills. Starting with Johann van Nassau-Siegen


Nassau-Siegen seems to be the title of John Maurice, who was barely even born when the first codified treatises on firearm drills were being published. Perhaps you meant an earlier John? (Or I might be mistaken.)
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Paul Kenworthy




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PostPosted: Fri 03 Oct, 2008 8:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Lafayette,

I am talking about Johann VII (1561-1623) Count of Nassau-Siegen who was one of the 24 children of Johann VI (1535-1606) Count of Nassau and Dietz. He was a younger brother of Willem Lodewijk (1560-1620) Count of Nassau. He was also a cousin of Maurits van Nassau, later Prince of Orange. Maurits and Willem Lodewijk went to school together and were good friends. Johann VII was an antiquarian and wrote extensively to Willem and Maurits about classical Greek and Roman tactics, especially Aelian's. He had the first illustrations showing the intermediate steps of weapons drill produced which eventually resulted in the de Gheyn manuals of 1607. Johann VII also established a short-lived military academy at Siegen.

Best Regards,

Paul
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Paul Kenworthy




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PostPosted: Fri 03 Oct, 2008 9:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Paul Kenworthy wrote:
16th-century matchlocks took over a minute to load and fire,


By the end of the century, the matchlock loading process was a lot faster than this--I've never been quite able to match the 4- or 5-shot per minute flintlock rate of fire except through cheating (i.e. having a round alreadly loaded and ready to fire at the start of the minute), but three shots per minute is perfectly achievable with a matchlock arquebus for short periods of time. I'm not sure I'd want to try getting such a rate of fire with a full-sized 16th-century musket, though...

Basically, I'm just saying that we shouldn't underestimate the practicality of early gunpowder arms. I can't help speculatinf that early firearm loading processes took so long because the officers wanted the men to take so much time aiming before firing the shot, in contrast to later practices of loading and firing as much as possible with just the most cursory aim. Of course I'm not proposing that this could have been a sole cause--just to take an easy counterexample, the change from matchlocks to flintlocks certainly enabled a vast improvement in loading speed by giving the soldiers a weapon that didn't have to be cast about the body during the loading process (i.e. it could be kept at the right side all the time rather than having to be swung around to the right and left like a matchlock).


Quote:
You have to load more slowly with a wooden scouring stick to make sure you don’t break it and disarm yourself.


True. I once broke a scouring-stick in a speed-loading attempt with a caliver and had to spend the day whittling dow na new one. Wink


Quote:
They developed standardized weapon handling drills. Starting with Johann van Nassau-Siegen


Nassau-Siegen seems to be the title of John Maurice, who was barely even born when the first codified treatises on firearm drills were being published. Perhaps you meant an earlier John? (Or I might be mistaken.)


I'm really surprised to hear that you can get 3 shots a minute out of a matchlock. I've done a lot of speed shooting with American Civil War rifles and my personal best was hitting a 4" target at 50 yards 9 times in 2.5 minutes. And I had to "cheat" to do that in the sense that I started with a round in the barrel, I stuck my rammer in the ground instead of returning it to the pipes, and I used plastic speed-loading tubes instead of paper cartridges. I'm amazed that you can cock, uncock, and try a match at that rate.

I'm not trying to denegrate early firearms, I'm just saying that combat shooting is significantly effected by forces that don't exist in target shooting. For example, it is much different loading a piece on a firing line where you can be sure that the range master is making sure no one walks in front of you than it is loading a piece while in formation. You have to be more careful -- and therefore slower -- with a gun that doesn't have a dog catch or half cock than you do with one that does. You have to keep an ear open for orders and be prepared to obey them promptly. You have to keep track of your position in the formation; dressing and covering as you work. And you really have to worry about making mistakes that will take you out of the battle, like breaking your scouring stick, dropping the key to your wheel lock, extinquishing your match, dry balling (forgetting to put the powder in before the ball -- this is the most common mistake I've seen in speed loading competitiions), firing your rammer (very common in combat), or having a round cook off while loading.

The battle of Rocroi lasted approximately 6 hours (4 am to 10 am). The Spanish had about 20,000 men. They suffered about 3,500 casualties (killed, wounded and missing) not counting the 3,800 men who surrendered at the end of the battle. That means their casualties were about 17.5% -- which isn't that high considering they lost. It compares favorably to Allied infantry casualty rates in WWII. That averages out at 2.9% casualties per hour of combat. Those numbers are pretty close to the numbers from the American Civil War where 900 lbs of lead was fired for every man hit. ACW firearms were all capable of holding 6 inch groups at 100 yards, so weapon accuracy wasn't the problem. You can try "mad minute" firing in combat, but you will have to give something up in return for the increased rate of fire. If the ship is sinking, go for the Hail Mary play, but if you're in the middle of an action where you don't know whether the fight might continue for another 4 hours, you're probably going to play conservatively.

Best Regards,

Paul
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Fri 03 Oct, 2008 2:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How these people managed to stay in formation in spite of incoming cannon fire is beyond me.

M.

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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Sat 04 Oct, 2008 8:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

[quote="Paul Kenworthy"]
Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
I'm really surprised to hear that you can get 3 shots a minute out of a matchlock. I've done a lot of speed shooting with American Civil War rifles and my personal best was hitting a 4" target at 50 yards 9 times in 2.5 minutes. And I had to "cheat" to do that in the sense that I started with a round in the barrel, I stuck my rammer in the ground instead of returning it to the pipes, and I used plastic speed-loading tubes instead of paper cartridges. I'm amazed that you can cock, uncock, and try a match at that rate.


Come on. You probably have figured out already that the three-shots-per-minute result clearly wasn't achieved with the drills as prescribed by the contemporary manuals. I cut an incredible number of corners--I didn't try the match on the closed pan, I used a horrendously small ball that actual 16th- or 17th-century marksmen would have cringed at, and I was just firing for speed without shooting at any definite target. Fortunately the ground in front of me was empty for miles ahead or I might have found myself at the wrong end of a manslaughter case....

(In short, I think the way I loaded at that time can't be described as a historically correct way at all. It was a modern sequence "inspired" by the safety precautions of the historical method but ultimately made up for speed with no regard for accuracy.)


Quote:
You can try "mad minute" firing in combat, but you will have to give something up in return for the increased rate of fire. If the ship is sinking, go for the Hail Mary play, but if you're in the middle of an action where you don't know whether the fight might continue for another 4 hours, you're probably going to play conservatively.


I'm not going to dispute that. I was just saying that the slow loading speed of early firearms couldn't be entirely blamed upon "hard" technical matters, since a great deal of that slowness had a lot to do with "soft" issues like doctrine (or the lack thereof) as well.


Last edited by Lafayette C Curtis on Sat 04 Oct, 2008 8:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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