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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Oct, 2008 3:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David,

That is interesting. I suppose it could be drawn so to show composite bows but it might also be done to represent yew with the sap and heart wood. I have heard rumours of recurve yew self bows before but nothing reliable which would be the one main issue with assuming them yew self bows.

Interesting woodcut for sure.

RPM
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Oct, 2008 5:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

After more thought on the subject. I think that these accounts are not an exaggeration. If these writers were triing to make the Irish out to be tougher than they actually were, to make the English look good for beating them, then they wouldnt say that the Irish were extraordinarily skilled with darts and javalins, but say that they were "More Noisesome, especially to the Horse, than deadly". Lets not forget that the dart was the primary missile weapon in Ireland, seconded by throwing rocks and insults Wink .
Éirinn go Brách
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David McElrea




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Oct, 2008 10:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Randall,

You make a good point. While the bows are clearly recurved, the factors that suggest laminates could also point to yew self bows (although I've not run into yew recurves before). Fascinating discussion!
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David McElrea




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Oct, 2008 10:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

An additional note. After a second glance, I am not sure whether the Dürer woodcut (below) does suggest composite construction... I seem to see a line which could suggest laminates, but then it could be the sap line between back and belly, or even shadow. On the other hand the line might not be there at all. I don't suppose anyone has a higher definition pic?

Thoughts would be appreciated.



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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Oct, 2008 11:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To me, the bow in the hunting scene above looks to be reflex rather than recurve, meaning that the arms of the bow are strongly curved away from the archer when unstrung, while recurve bow arms only curve away at the tips. Im not sure if yew selfbows could take the forces exerted on a reflex bow but mabye someone with more knowlage of bows could help us with that.
Éirinn go Brách
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David McElrea




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Oct, 2008 1:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the distinction, Stephen. I had always thought of "reflex" as falling under the broader category of "recurve," but this might just be verbal sloppiness on my part.
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Oct, 2008 10:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David,

I do not see a line from top to bottom on the Durer work but many pictures of selfbows would exclude the coloration. I have seen that picture in the past. Its interesting because the bow is not really that big I do not think.

Stephen,

I am not sure how to tell if it was recurve or reflex. To me it rather looks like just the upper arms are curved alone. I do not know if yew could be made reflux though but I will ask around a few bowyers working with it and see. I know recurves are possible with yew now adays but with period sources on if it was used is more or less limited to artwork and possible artists creativity.

RPM
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Thu 09 Oct, 2008 9:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Curtin wrote:
Both mention some of the Irish light cavalry as armed with bows half the size of English bows but with the same power. It compares these bows and other equipment to saracen equipment, such as swords and helmets. If these bows were just short versions of English longbows then there power could not be the same, so either it an exaggeration or maybe they are using composite bows like the saracens. What do the rest of you think?


"With the same power?" I can't see any mentions of that--what I read in there was that the Irish bow was half the size of the English bow but could shoot as far. This is by no means unusual and wouldn't require a bow of equal strength to the English ones either; maybe the Irish simply used lighter arrows, which naturally would have flown farther. After all, there's no mention whatsoever of how effective these bows were against the English troops, right?

Take a look at this article: Military Archery in Medieval Ireland. It has a section on bows found in Ireland, and so far all of them have been self bows--not composites--but they were noticeably shorter than English and Scandinavian longbows.


Stephen Curtin wrote:
To me, the bow in the hunting scene above looks to be reflex rather than recurve, meaning that the arms of the bow are strongly curved away from the archer when unstrung, while recurve bow arms only curve away at the tips.


Your definitions are correct, but according to them the bow in the picture is a recurve as well--since the distal part of (at least) the upper limb curves away from the archer when the bow is drawn. Note that "reflex" and "recurve" are not mutually exclusive with each other--most Asian composite bows are both reflexed (in unstrung condition) and recurved (in strung condition).

All that said, I'm a bit suspicious about that illustration. The "archery in medieval Ireland" article mentions no finds of such sharply recurved bows, so I suspect the artist was simply drawing an "exotic" bow--not specifically in Irish bow--or at most he was exaggerating the extent of the very conservative recurve found on actual Irish bows of the time.
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Fri 10 Oct, 2008 11:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks again Lafeyette for another great article.

Quote:
With the same power?" I can't see any mentions of that--what I read in there was that the Irish bow was half the size of the English bow but could shoot as far. This is by no means unusual and wouldn't require a bow of equal strength to the English ones either; maybe the Irish simply used lighter arrows, which naturally would have flown farther. After all, there's no mention whatsoever of how effective these bows were against the English troops, right?


That is a good point, I had not thought of that.

From what I read those short bows were attributed to welsh archers and there are no bows from archeology that can definitely be attributed to the Native Irish. I wouldnt discount anything because its not found in the archeological record as finds are fairly rare in Ireland.

I agree, you are right to be a bit suspicious of these illustrations as sometimes the artist had only someone else's discription to go by and like in the above texts if a bow is discribed as looking saracen then thats what he'll draw.

Éirinn go Brách
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Darren Tully




Location: Dublin, Ireland
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PostPosted: Tue 14 Oct, 2008 6:37 am    Post subject: Re: Irish helmet         Reply with quote

Kevin P Molloy wrote:
Can anyone tell me anything about the helmet worn in this picture? All I know is these are 16th century Irish warriors as depicted by Lucas De Heere. Has anyone seen anything similiar?


I havet seen any examples of those helmets out side of wood cuttings and drawings
not even in the National museum of Ireland or Christ Chuch in Dublin

If your looking for similar helmet I'd have to agree with Lafayette C Curtis it does resemble
a pikeman's pot minus the crest


At a stretch, the first thing that came to mind when I first saw the picture was
a La Tene helmet (I'm not sure if that is the correct name for the type please
correct me if I am wrong)

They date back from 2nd and 3rd centuries BC France
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Kevin P Molloy




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PostPosted: Wed 22 Oct, 2008 6:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

With regard to this helmet would the original have had some kind of leather liner? Or would it have been worn with just an arming cap underneath?


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Kevin Patrick Molloy
"The Prince of Firceall of the Ancient Sword is O'Molloy of the Freeborn Name"... O'Dugain(d.1372AD)
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Wed 22 Oct, 2008 7:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kevin

I would say that it depends how you interpret the mail around the neck.

IMO if the mail is a coif, then an arming cap is worn under the coif and the helm has a leather suspension system to hold it in the right place.

But if the mail is a camail or bishops mantle then padding would be glued into the helm fullfilling the roles of both arming cap and suspension system.

I personally would go with the first choise as I think he is wearing a coif.

Éirinn go Brách
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Kevin P Molloy




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PostPosted: Thu 23 Oct, 2008 2:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Curtin wrote:
Kevin

I would say that it depends how you interpret the mail around the neck.

IMO if the mail is a coif, then an arming cap is worn under the coif and the helm has a leather suspension system to hold it in the right place.

But if the mail is a camail or bishops mantle then padding would be glued into the helm fullfilling the roles of both arming cap and suspension system.

I personally would go with the first choise as I think he is wearing a coif.



I think its the second choice since you can see a gap between the helmet and the chainmail. I think it may be the collar of the Aketon he is wearing under his mail.
I'm going to have this helmet reproduced and want to be historically accurate.

Kevin Patrick Molloy
"The Prince of Firceall of the Ancient Sword is O'Molloy of the Freeborn Name"... O'Dugain(d.1372AD)
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