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Steven Reich
Location: Arlington, VA Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 237
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 Posted: Fri 12 Sep, 2008 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | | I do not doubt you, Steve, that a cut and draw would have a better effect. I am not sure the cut and draw can be done effectively with combinations (but I am open to experimenting with this), for example in the case of Zwerchhues where you are rapidly going back and forth to different quadrants looking for an opening. I expect that the first few will be blocked, I don't know which will will get through. I am having trouble visualizing how I would be able to draw-cut each of those successive blows. |
Since the draw isn't done until the percussion, I think that it wouldn't be too much of a problem as it should be part of the "natural motion" of the completion of the cut. Therefore, if your cut is intercepted before it lands on the intended target, there won't be any draw. However, some types of cuts will be much harder or impossible to draw at all (such as certain false-edge cuts).
Steve
Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
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Bartek Strojek
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| Posted: Fri 12 Sep, 2008 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | My questions I why would you want to slice rather then make a percussive hit with a straight blade. I can understand that the curved sword naturally slices and that is fine, but why force a straight blade to slice. With a thin sharp sword I can go through tatami with just a straight cut. That means I could at least get through to the bone of a thigh. Why bother with the slice??? (unless you miss a thrust and are drawing back or you opponent places his wrists or neck near your blade)
Against mail or even thick leather the slice is useless. A hard percusive hit may still break some bone or bruise muscle. |
I think that purpose of slice is simple - to defeat fabric, textile, padding, cloth or other layers.
See this great test by Michael Edelson - katana (slicing sword) is great for such purpose.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=11131
| Quote: | | Including a draw-cut with a XVa by Jan Chodkiewicz. Not much of a problem with slicing. |
Woah, 75 MB? It must be interesting, downloading right now 
EDIT: Crap, I aready have it. It's great test, anyway!
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Zachary Smiley
Location: Sheridan, Wyoming Joined: 11 Sep 2008
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Fri 12 Sep, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: |
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The saber was used as the primary sword for cavalry for a period of time. Perhaps the curve helped when cutting from horseback? I do not know, but the katana's predecessor, the tachi, had a more drastic curve and was used from horseback as well.
thank you for reading
-Zac
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Christopher H
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| Posted: Fri 12 Sep, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | My questions I why would you want to slice rather then make a percussive hit with a straight blade. I can understand that the curved sword naturally slices and that is fine, but why force a straight blade to slice. With a thin sharp sword I can go through tatami with just a straight cut. That means I could at least get through to the bone of a thigh. Why bother with the slice??? (unless you miss a thrust and are drawing back or you opponent places his wrists or neck near your blade)
Against mail or even thick leather the slice is useless. A hard percusive hit may still break some bone or bruise muscle. |
Hi,
I don't see a cut as either a slice or a percussion, but that the slicing action is added to the percussion to make the cut more efficient.
I feel that the technique is historical, at least by my interpretation - starting with blade closer to the body and ending with it further away from the body:
http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_arms_gls15.jpg
http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_arms_gls17.jpg
Keeping in mind the Döbringer recommendations, it feels as if I'm throwing the tip in a straight line through the target.
I feel it has the advantage of keeping distance between the opponent and yourself and I find that when I get my footwork correct, cutting in this manner can be quite effortless but I can add force without altering the technique. If I was to attempt cutting hard targets or participate in a contact sport I imagine the addition of force would be necessary.
I think that the cut remains similar visually regardless of force and perhaps it could be useful for feints in bouting - but that hasn't been a part of my practice.
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Steven Reich
Location: Arlington, VA Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Fri 12 Sep, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Christopher H wrote: | | I don't see a cut as either a slice or a percussion, but that the slicing action is added to the percussion to make the cut more efficient. |
And this is what several Italian masters say--a percussive strike with a push or draw (i.e. what you're supposed to do with a saber). Not merely a 'hack' nor just a 'draw'.
Steve
Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
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Christopher H
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| Posted: Fri 12 Sep, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Steven Reich wrote: | | Christopher H wrote: | | I don't see a cut as either a slice or a percussion, but that the slicing action is added to the percussion to make the cut more efficient. |
And this is what several Italian masters say--a percussive strike with a push or draw (i.e. what you're supposed to do with a saber). Not merely a 'hack' nor just a 'draw'.
Steve |
Thanks for sharing that Steve, very interesting to know!
Would you happen to be able to provide some of their names? I'd be very interested in reading up on them.
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Steven Reich
Location: Arlington, VA Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Fri 12 Sep, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Christopher H wrote: | Thanks for sharing that Steve, very interesting to know!
Would you happen to be able to provide some of their names? I'd be very interested in reading up on them. |
The one that comes to mind first is Fabris, who talks about it in his chapter on cuts. I'd have to look to see what the others say.
Steve
Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
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Eric Myers
Location: Sacramento, CA Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 214
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Mon 15 Sep, 2008 4:30 am Post subject: |
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Slicing is also easier to do in a cramped battle.
While a good blow needs space and speed to be efficient, a draw cut can be executed AFTER contact has been made.
If you are very close to close to the foe, a curved blade would also be easier to move, as it would not snag as much.
Say two horsemen are clinching, and block each others first blow. They are now pretty limited to grapple and cut. (unless they have a very short weapon, like for instance a horseman's mace...) In such a situation a good blow might not be posible at all.
Similar condtions would apply on foot in tight formations.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Tomas Kringen
Location: Oslo, Norway Joined: 06 Sep 2008
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Mon 15 Sep, 2008 10:04 am Post subject: |
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What a great forum, so much knowledge. Thanks, all of you.
Signature says hallo
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Wed 17 Sep, 2008 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| Elling Polden wrote: | Slicing is also easier to do in a cramped battle.
While a good blow needs space and speed to be efficient, a draw cut can be executed AFTER contact has been made.
If you are very close to close to the foe, a curved blade would also be easier to move, as it would not snag as much.
Say two horsemen are clinching, and block each others first blow. They are now pretty limited to grapple and cut. (unless they have a very short weapon, like for instance a horseman's mace...) In such a situation a good blow might not be posible at all.
Similar condtions would apply on foot in tight formations. |
You know there is a vid I found on you tube on something about that. Well it happened in more modern times but we can extrapolate something out of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWvsHorqldM&feature=related
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This is a standard topic