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Craig Shira
Location: California Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 39
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 Posted: Sun 07 Sep, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| Anders Nilsson wrote: | | you fought with the shield and killed with the sword. |
Or, in a judicial duel, your shield was equally as deadly as the sword or cudgel that you swung at your opponent. In one image from Talhoffer, two men are fighting with shield and mace and one combatant is thrusting at his opponent's face with the shield with the intent to kill. In another image from Talhoffer, the shield has hooked the opponent's head and yanked it in a way that would surely sever the spine. There are also leg hooks with the shield and people being fatally stabbed by the shield. In other judicial duels, all you were given was a shield, no other weapon, because the shield is a lethal weapon.
I do acknowledge that the shields of judicial duels are of a completely different design than for warfare and they are intended for one-on-one combat; however, these shields are a perfect example of the shield being just as lethal as a sword. I wonder if anyone will successfully employ one of these shields in SCA combat since, to use them properly, they break almost every SCA safety regulation.
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Anders Nilsson
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| Posted: Sun 07 Sep, 2008 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Do you really want to include grappling and shield strikes into a full contact fight? |
Yes, of course, a fight is a fight.
I train HEMA and we do it all the time. We user Shinai and nylonwaster.
Our only armour is a fencingmask, cup, mouthpiece and gloves.
Itīs like MMA with weapons.
Of course, I only hit a hard as I have to since I donīt want to injure my mates, but some KOīs and submissions happen.
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Gavin Kisebach
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| Posted: Sun 07 Sep, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, of course, a fight is a fight.
I train HEMA and we do it all the time. We user Shinai and nylonwaster.
Our only armour is a fencingmask, cup, mouthpiece and gloves.
Itīs like MMA with weapons.
Of course, I only hit a hard as I have to since I donīt want to injure my mates, but some KOīs and submissions happen. |
It seems that a lot of people think only of the single combat touneys when they think of the SCA. I don't know if that is because tourneys have better PR, or because people who are into martial arts tend to think of single combat because mass melee is just about unheard of in modern fighting.
I fight only in wars. I train primarily to fight in a unit, and maybe one in four hours that I spend training is one on one. As it is, people do get trampled and injured in spite of our best safety efforts. Grappling one on one makes sense; it may even make sense in a bar brawl, but with anywhere from a hundred to several thousand people fighting full contact (as is common in SCA wars ) it would be lunacy.
Here's a good example of a terrible place to grapple.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7Wzi1RpYQw
It's very difficult to accurately convey just how brutal and frenzied mass melee can be, which is why I recommend the experience to anyone with an interest in warfare. It is totally different to single combat.
There are only two kinds of scholars; those who love ideas and those who hate them. ~ Emile Chartier
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Sun 07 Sep, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: Shields for Offense |
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| Craig Shira wrote: | .
| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | | 1-Heater-(24"x36") shield 100% defense and sword 100% offense. Corners are vital to blocking. |
A heater is 100% defense? Not true.
You can shield punch your opponent--send that forward corner straight into his face.. You can hook with a shield. You can pin down with your shield. Shields are not 100% defense. While a shield punch is not SCA legal, I have seen tons of SCA fighters grapple with their heaters, prying open a hole in their opponent's defense with the edge of their heaters and blasting a shot in the nook. I've also seen people using the shield to forcefully pin down both arms of the fighter and arrest his movement and take a free shot at the exposed target. The idea of 100% defense for a shield, heater or otherwise, is lazy.
Size does not contribute to the offensive nature of a shield. I have seen large barn-door sized heater shields and even large Roman-style shields being used very offensively in the manners described above (minus the shield punch, being an SCA event). The giant judicial shields in the German manuscripts were used for murdering the opponent just as frequently as the club or sword in the other hand. Small or large, a shield can be very offensive.
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I probably should not have said 100% since I make a lot of use of shield presses. Shield presses and hooks are kind of in between, not exactly defensive nor offensive, but manipulative. I would be fine with trimming down that 100% to 90% and scaling down accordingly the other shields. In my statement I was trying to set a frame of reference to compare the various shields.
Shields jabs with the edge can be very risky. You are betting the farm when you open up your shield to jab forward. If you opponent keeps his shield somewhat flat, the shield jab will do nothing and you just gave him a free shot or two. It also takes a lot of energy to punch a 8 lb heater forward and then pull it back into position. In a heater vs heater fight most of the shots will be blocked. So you really don't want to invest too much energy in any one attack. For these reasons, I would use shield jabs very sparingly, if at all. Also consider that a larger shield can only move forward in a jab at about 30 mph...its big... I can see that. A sword is usually moving at about 160 mph. I can't see your blade well...its thin. I have to look at your shoulders or elbows to get a clue where that shot is going. I would prefer to do the attacking with my lighter, quicker sword.
When I first started fighting with sword and shield I was very active with my heater. I would fight for a few minutes and then my shield would start dipping because I was tired. Not because I was out of shape, but because I was waving my shield all over the place and then using all my strength to bring it back in place. My opponents, were making the minimal movements necessary so they had hardly broke a sweat. I now get a lot more millage by moving the shield as little as possible. I say trying... because I can still become more efficient. As you move to smaller targes and bucklers you can now afford to be more active.
In response to some other comments people made, like wraps, a shield press, jab or grapple attempt is an ideal setup for a wrap since a shield edge has less range then a sword. As I mentioned in earlier posts, I can also make a half-wrap at maximum range. The purpose of this is to just get the tip of my sword around your shield edge or weapon. An arming-sword has about 30" or edge on both sides, its all for hitting with. If someone does a shield press and gives me an opening to their face, I can do every effective forte punch too. I train to use every inch of blade on both its sides.
Of you don't see yourself getting close enough give someone a full wrap... how do you imagine giving them a shield jab where you have to get even closer?
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Anders Nilsson
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| Posted: Sun 07 Sep, 2008 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Gavin Kisebach wrote: | | Quote: |
Yes, of course, a fight is a fight.
I train HEMA and we do it all the time. We user Shinai and nylonwaster.
Our only armour is a fencingmask, cup, mouthpiece and gloves.
Itīs like MMA with weapons.
Of course, I only hit a hard as I have to since I donīt want to injure my mates, but some KOīs and submissions happen. |
I fight only in wars. I train primarily to fight in a unit, and maybe one in four hours that I spend training is one on one. As it is, people do get trampled and injured in spite of our best safety efforts. Grappling one on one makes sense; it may even make sense in a bar brawl, but with anywhere from a hundred to several thousand people fighting full contact (as is common in SCA wars ) it would be lunacy.
Here's a good example of a terrible place to grapple.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7Wzi1RpYQw
It's very difficult to accurately convey just how brutal and frenzied mass melee can be, which is why I recommend the experience to anyone with an interest in warfare. It is totally different to single combat. |
Well, the Russians and Polish do larger battles than that, and they do it fullcontact with steel and they also do grappling.
I train Historical martial arts to get as real as possible. Rules donīt make it real.
Grappling was a mayor part of combat, especially if your oponent has armour. The English arches at Agincourt and Crecy wrestled the unhorsed knights to the ground and finished them of with daggers.
I have a full suit of gothic armour and the best way to beat me is to wrestle me to the ground and nail me under the arm with a dagger. To beat on the armour has no effect.
To get a feel of what combat was like, I suggest the use of as much historical clues as possible, safe weapons that behave as close to real weapons as possible and as few rules as possible, "No stab in eye" like some Lithuainians I fought once said.
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Anders Nilsson
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| Posted: Mon 08 Sep, 2008 12:00 am Post subject: Re: Shields for Offense |
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| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: |
In response to some other comments people made, like wraps, a shield press, jab or grapple attempt is an ideal setup for a wrap since a shield edge has less range then a sword. As I mentioned in earlier posts, I can also make a half-wrap at maximum range. The purpose of this is to just get the tip of my sword around your shield edge or weapon. An arming-sword has about 30" or edge on both sides, its all for hitting with. If someone does a shield press and gives me an opening to their face, I can do every effective forte punch too. I train to use every inch of blade on both its sides.
Of you don't see yourself getting close enough give someone a full wrap... how do you imagine giving them a shield jab where you have to get even closer? |
Correctly used, a shield edge has longer range than the sword.
If you use a 8Lb shiled itīs way to heavy.
The thickest vikingshield found where about 8mm thich and covered with linen. I have a 100 cm vikingshield thats 8mm and covered with linen it doesnīt even weigh 4 lb.
Most reenactors and SCA do their shields to thick. Mostly because they think shields where passive defense. A shield is made for setting aside. Vikings for example overlapped their shields in formation to get the extra strenght to the shields.
The heaviest shields I have encountered where ancient greek shield. They weigh as much as 30lb, but they where shieldwall sheilds, made to hold a line and push the enemy, they also had mush bronze on them. Strikes with the shields where common thou, even with these large shields.
(See side 64 The cutting edge - Barry Molloy)
To understand combat, one has to examine what was actually used. Not make up own stuff because it suits you, then it becomes a game, and not combat.
These guys are the once I know about that has the best knowledge in the use of shield.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXPujfwQJUg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGNBc7ewusQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWSTx0tZHCU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8SRaa33otU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXPujfwQJUg
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Mon 08 Sep, 2008 6:58 am Post subject: |
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Center Grip shields are a different fighting style then the ones strapped to the forearm. I fought against one just yesterday. Center grips are typically used in a punch-block method. They attempt to stop blows where they originate, their opponents shoulder. They tend to be smaller and lighter to tire the arm less. They don't necessarily stop a shot dead in its tracks. The shield-arm gives to absorb the blow from its extended position. If you try strapping the thin shields in the hamburg video to your forearm and stopping the blows dead, those shields would soon break. A forearm strapped shield is heavier because it is stopping the blows at their destination. At this point the blows have had time to accelerate to full momentum and power.
There are advantages and disadvantages to every shield type and their associated fighting style. A large center grip can be very unstable, especially when I start hitting and poking at the edges. They are a lot easier to safely hook because they are fought so extended. When a forearm strapped shield hooks a center grip, the fight is usually over. One way that center grip fighters stabilize their shields is to support it with either the shoulder or sword-hilt (or both in a charge). This reduces the offense and defense capabilities.
I have seen some very effective use of light center grips. There are no good or bad shields, just different ones. They each have their own fighting style.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Bryce Felperin
Location: San Jose, CA Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 552
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| Posted: Tue 09 Sep, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Gavin Kisebach wrote: |
Let me put it another way. Below is a picture of my friend Jerry. He's an ex biker and power lifter. He is 6'4" and weighs just under 300 lbs. In a bar fight, he likes to pull people's arms out of their sockets. In the SCA he fights with a 6' danish axe, and he can toss you and me around like we were toddlers.
Do you really want to include grappling and shield strikes into a full contact fight? |
Short answer...playing by rules no! ;-)
If you look at some of the manuals though, they use a lot of destructive grappling moves (ligiment tears, dislocations, etc.) which might be effective against your friend (kicking out his knees comes to mind), but not in a sporting, loving manner in a bout. So I figure you have no grappling rules in SCA for a good reason!
I still figure though that SCA rules give your big friend the advantage over what historical fights would be like. Also crossbow at long range comes to mind in fighting him too. :-)
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Tue 09 Sep, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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If enough people became interested, the SCA could and would develop a separate grappling program. They have done that with archery, rapier, side-sword, weapon-throwing, cooking, beading, calligraphy, heraldry, music, etc. That is after all how they became the giant organization they are. It would be a matter of deciding if it was to be competitive along the lines of Olympic Wrestling or just drilling using period techniques.
People within the organization do discus grappling tactics and there are no rules against drilling them in a similar manor that is done in WMA classes. You just can mix it into the rattan fighting and allow people to blow each others elbows out. Realistically now, even in WMA sparring, how often do people go to the ground? The grappling in sparring usually stops at pushing/pulling and unbalancing, not at the point where you actually dig your thumbs in the other guy's eye-sockets. People can always question how far is far enough in grappling. Should we allow biting too?
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Anders Nilsson
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| Posted: Tue 09 Sep, 2008 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | | People within the organization do discus grappling tactics and there are no rules against drilling them in a similar manor that is done in WMA classes. You just can mix it into the rattan fighting and allow people to blow each others elbows out. Realistically now, even in WMA sparring, how often do people go to the ground? The grappling in sparring usually stops at pushing/pulling and unbalancing, not at the point where you actually dig your thumbs in the other guy's eye-sockets. People can always question how far is far enough in grappling. Should we allow biting too? |
That is an interesting question.
We go to the ground quite often. There are lots of nice technics to close in. We usually quit after a takedown. The one that down usually taps. Sometimes we go as far as submissions. We rarly go for a knock. I like to ground and pound, but I "mark" that by grazing shots so my friends understands that I could have knocked him.
As you said itīs often unbalancing. Your weapon is the killing tool. If you rock your oponent, you get an opening to use that weapon.
I like Talhoffers "Tretten in die brusch" and use it quite often. Do a high attack to, if the oponent defends, kick him in the stomach so heīs rocked and then finish him.
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Thu 11 Sep, 2008 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | | A forearm strapped shield is heavier because it is stopping the blows at their destination. At this point the blows have had time to accelerate to full momentum and power. |
Maybe that's so in the SCA, but I recall many Italian sword-and-target techniques that press or punch against the opponent's sword arm, hence stopping the blows at their starting point. Probably this has something to do with shield construction--SCA heaters may simply be too heavy (though actual historical heaters not necessarily so) to block, press, and bind in this active manner.
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Thu 11 Sep, 2008 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: | | Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | | A forearm strapped shield is heavier because it is stopping the blows at their destination. At this point the blows have had time to accelerate to full momentum and power. |
Maybe that's so in the SCA, but I recall many Italian sword-and-target techniques that press or punch against the opponent's sword arm, hence stopping the blows at their starting point. Probably this has something to do with shield construction--SCA heaters may simply be too heavy (though actual historical heaters not necessarily so) to block, press, and bind in this active manner. |
Can you give more details on how you were fighting? How big was the targe? How was it strapped? What type of sword are you using? Rapier or cut / thrust? How hard were you guys hitting?
SCA shields weights vary dependent on their construction. Mine is made of 5052 H38 aluminum and is thin. It weights about 8 lbs. Prior to this I had constructed one out of plywood. In the same 24" x 36" dimension, the wooden one weighted 12 lbs. I had rimmed the edge for extra strength near the corners. It lasted about 6 practices before the wood started breaking apart. That's when I decided I needed something more permanent.
It is not uncommon to see a 2 lb flux in shield weight just from handles, leather straps, rims, padding on the inside. I currently keep mine as stripped down as possible. The aluminum is thinner but more dense, the wood on the other hand needs to be about 1/4 inch thick. So the weight difference is not that much and can go either way depending on other add-ons. I have also experimented with a plastic shield I had cut out of a carwash barrel. It was thinner the the wooden one but thicker then the aluminum one. It weighed in at about 8 lbs too at 24"x36". That included two ribs for added stability. I don't think you can get any lighter then 8 lbs for a 24"x36" shield and expect it to be reliable.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
Last edited by Bill Tsafa on Thu 11 Sep, 2008 11:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Thu 11 Sep, 2008 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | | Can you give more details on how you were fighting? |
Stealing a lot from existing extrapolations, mostly the ones from Stephen Hand and Casper Bradak. Of course, I try to go the primary sources as well, mostly translations of Di Grassi and of Marozzo's Bolognese stuff. The Order of the Seven Hearts has recently put up a nice PDF summarizing the sword-and-target actions in the Bolognese style and I'm planning to go over that as well.
| Quote: | | What shield type and dimensions? How was it strapped? |
A renaissance target, about two and a half feet in diameter and strapped to the forearm. I've only tried a wooden reconstruction, though--not the kind faced with steel plates.
| Quote: | | What type of sword are you using? Rapier or cut / thrust? |
Just wooden wasters, actually--and ones originally intended to model medieval swords (roughly Type XV-ish arming swords) without complex hilts at that. But that doesn't seem to have invalidated the Renaissance techniques to any degree.
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Thu 11 Sep, 2008 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: |
A renaissance target, about two and a half feet in diameter and strapped to the forearm. I've only tried a wooden reconstruction, though--not the kind faced with steel plates.
Just wooden wasters, actually--and ones originally intended to model medieval swords (roughly Type XV-ish arming swords) without complex hilts at that. But that doesn't seem to have invalidated the Renaissance techniques to any degree. |
30 inches wide. That should have weighted about 8 lbs too in 1/4 inch wood. You must have been using 1/8 thick if it seemed light. I don't think you would want to use that in a real battle. Forget about blocking, I don't think it would survive a good charge. Against a rapier, you would be ok with 1/8 wood, against Type XV... I would not bet my life.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Anders Nilsson
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| Posted: Fri 12 Sep, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: |
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Shields did splinter. They where not made to last forever, if so they would have been to heavy. A clue is the Viking ritual of the Holmgang.
Each fighter was allowed 3 shields into the single combat, and they ussually broke to splinters.
The same for battlefield shields. After an intense battle the shield was spendt.
Vikingshields was around 8 mm thick.
Later sheilds for mounted warfare was about 1 cm.
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Fri 12 Sep, 2008 11:38 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Anders. 8 mm converts to .31 inches. That is even more then my .25 inches of plywood. I am sure that the wood they would of used would have been more dense then plywood too. I think 8 to 10 lbs for a 30 inch round is correct.
This is not a shield you can wave around for too long. Consider that your arm will be already somewhat tired from walking to the battlefield, standing in formation and waiting for orders. This is one of the things I have learned from SCA war melees. You start every battle tired and draw from your adrenalin reserves to fight.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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Marc Pengryffyn
Location: Canberra, Australia Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 72
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| Posted: Sat 13 Sep, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | The side-sword vs side-sword videos just became available.
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Very interesting! Thanks again!
Just some observations and questions-
There seemed to be a lot of double-hits. Do you think this is [partly?] due to your unfamiliarity with single side-sword? Is Adam familiar with that configuration?
I noticed that you both swapped hands frequently. Do you train with both hands? That's something I've been keen on for years. Are you ambidextrous at all?
I noticed that most of your thrusts were angling straight upwards and were done with a very bent wrist. Mostly a factor of the distance, I suppose? It looked to me like your thumb was up for all of them, although it's a bit hard to be sure. I always tried to thrust with the hand in pronation [palm down-thumb medial], or in supination [palm up] if thrusting from the off side. I was taught that this was to keep the strongest parts of the blade, guard and wrist protecting the outside lines during the thrust. Your method seemed pretty successful, still....
Excellent videos, and thanks again. I wish I'd been there!
Marc
Tradition is the illusion of permanence.
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Sat 13 Sep, 2008 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Marc Pengryffyn wrote: |
Just some observations and questions-
There seemed to be a lot of double-hits. Do you think this is [partly?] due to your unfamiliarity with single side-sword? Is Adam familiar with that configuration?
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Neither of us is very familiar with this form. I though it might be interesting to observe my sword work alone, without a shield.
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I noticed that you both swapped hands frequently. Do you train with both hands? That's something I've been keen on for years. Are you ambidextrous at all?
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Adam just fought left handed. He used his right hand for parrying only with a padded glove. I am ambidextrous and switched to keep refreshing my sword-arm. The draw back was that since I had no gauntlet I did not use my hand for parries. A gauntlet would not have allowed me to do quick switches so I kept that hand behind my back for safety. This did allow me to lead more with one shoulder or the other and present a smaller target. Adam had the use of a hand parry but also gave me a larger chest target to aim for as he leaned in with the off-hand. Either way you gain some benefit and give something up too.
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I noticed that most of your thrusts were angling straight upwards and were done with a very bent wrist. Mostly a factor of the distance, I suppose? It looked to me like your thumb was up for all of them, although it's a bit hard to be sure. I always tried to thrust with the hand in pronation [palm down-thumb medial], or in supination [palm up] if thrusting from the off side. I was taught that this was to keep the strongest parts of the blade, guard and wrist protecting the outside lines during the thrust. Your method seemed pretty successful, still....
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I try to keep my point threatening my opponents face. If he tries to rush in there is a good chance he will impale himself. That angle is also just enough for me to execute a cut from with very little pullback, if any. So I maintain the option of a thrust or cut.
I tend to favor a neutral hand position and then pronate or supinate as the attack comes in. Depending on which side the blade comes in I roll the true edge into it. This is the style I have developed with rapier and I find that the rotating action from a neutral position often traps the other blade in my qillions.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Marc Pengryffyn
Location: Canberra, Australia Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 72
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| Posted: Sun 14 Sep, 2008 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | | I tend to favor a neutral hand position and then pronate or supinate as the attack comes in. Depending on which side the blade comes in I roll the true edge into it. This is the style I have developed with rapier and I find that the rotating action from a neutral position often traps the other blade in my qillions. |
Ahh, ok. Looking at the vids again, I can see that...just.
Thanks
Marc
Tradition is the illusion of permanence.
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