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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Oct, 2009 10:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:

We know that Europeans traded with the Japanese. By your logic you can have viking ninjas running around. FWIW lamellar was one of the cheapest forms of metal armour available. That's why it was issued to the Byzantine rank and file. Anyone with wealth in Europe during the viking era would have worn mail. Which, by the way, would include veterans of the Varangian Guard.


Dan,
Varangian Guard (perhaps) , can not wear mail or lamellar, perhaps a kind of leather bodice. A rare photo, you can not see well, but I do not think it one or the other. We clearly see their weapons. Tomorrow I try to find this picture, it is on a book.

Now a question:
Does anyone know if other lamellar have been sewn with threads of iron or bronze?
No node behind, only folds.
Here an example, the seam may be bronze.
Ciao
Maurizio



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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Oct, 2009 1:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Isn't that example Roman rather than Byzantine? It is scale armour since the plates are fixed to a backing though some have classified it as "locking scale" since it is a distinct sub-type. The plates are attached with wire, not lacing.

Here are two more.



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Found in Zeguma Turkey

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Found in a British Roman fort
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Oct, 2009 4:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Isn't that example Roman rather than Byzantine? It is scale armour since the plates are fixed to a backing though some have classified it as "locking scale" since it is a distinct sub-type. The plates are attached with wire, not lacing.

Here are two more.

Dan thanks.
I think, Roman, not Byzantine, but you answered my question, wire, not lacing.
Here, Varangian Guard by my book.
I could not have better quality. My book on the warrior at the center seems to have a leather armor, you see drawings above.



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My reflection:
But the artist has designed the bird on the shield and tattoos on her arm, not typically Byzantine. This means attention to detail.


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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Oct, 2009 4:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
I could not have better quality. My book on the warrior at the center seems to have a leather armor, you see drawings above.

How can you look at a black and white drawing and conclude that something is made of leather?
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Oct, 2009 5:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan
only hypotheses. I find it hard a drawing on mail or lamellar
The majority of the Varangian Guard was mercenaries Russians, descendants of the Vikings, I agree with you, perhaps most likely mail, but other influences were possible ...

From another book, a reconstruction, mail here.



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note: the mercenary Tattoos and Viking sword. Varangian Guard with great Byzantine influence.
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Oct, 2009 2:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some fragments of actual Roman era scale were found at the fort barracks at Yassihöyük (Gordion), Ankara Province, Turkey. http://antiquity.ac.uk/projgall/bennett/index.html Given surrounding artifacts of central European origin, it seems reasonable that these could have been Roman and not Persian.


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Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Oct, 2009 6:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
I could not have better quality. My book on the warrior at the center seems to have a leather armor, you see drawings above.

How can you look at a black and white drawing and conclude that something is made of leather?


Hello Dan,
about the photo in black and white, with regard to the warrior at the center of the figure, I found this.
Two Byzantine warrior, dating, about 10 th: one with the lamellar corslet (klibanion), this is normal.
The other warrior with a muscled leathter corselet. Maybe a little outdated for the 10 th, but this is.
Perhaps the artist is wrong?
Is possible, but we can not exclude that the warrior of Varangian Guard at the center of the photo above had this type of corselet. On this type you can draw, maybe it's painted with the musculature, but something seems drawn. If he had worn mail or lamellar this is impossible.
Ciao
Maurizio



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verigan guard 3.jpg

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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Oct, 2009 6:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here another two: dating first half 10 th. (Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana, Rome)
Muscled leathter corselet, was not so unusual it seems.
Ciao
Maurizio



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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Wed 14 Oct, 2009 10:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmm, Maurizio, what makes yiou think that the quirass is made of leather? It can as well be metal?
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 4:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Artis Aboltins wrote:
Hmm, Maurizio, what makes yiou think that the quirass is made of leather? It can as well be metal?


So it is written, at least for the photo of the 2 warriors. <<Muscled leathter corselet>>
Artistic license? Then I think, a mistake I can, perhaps a little premature to be made in iron perhaps bronze? a little 'outdated to be leather? speaks of the tenth century.

These things are there, but the general use provided mail or lamellar. Varangian Guard perhaps only mail. This is the general approach.
But few studies have been done to investigate these things.

Ciao
Maurizio


Last edited by Maurizio D'Angelo on Thu 15 Oct, 2009 4:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 4:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roman Musculatas were made of metal not leather. There is no reason to suspect that Byzantine examples were not the same. There isn't a single shred of evidence to suggest that that this type of armour was ever made of leather.
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 4:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

mmm....author Jan Heat. Another author perhaps unreliable. Eek!
Before buying I asked if this author was trustworthy. No response. Here my post: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=173469#173469
Ciao
Maurizio
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 5:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I didn't respond because I don't read Osprey. Even if I had read them I would not make a judgement on their reliability based on a single datapoint (e.g. leather armour)
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 5:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
I didn't respond because I don't read Osprey. Even if I had read them I would not make a judgement on their reliability based on a single datapoint (e.g. leather armour)


Dan,
This comforts me. I hope that I have not wasted my money. Happy
Ciao
Maurizio
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 6:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Roman Musculatas were made of metal not leather. There is no reason to suspect that Byzantine examples were not the same. There isn't a single shred of evidence to suggest that that this type of armour was ever made of leather.


Indeed it would really be a waste of good leather to make quirass out of it, un;ess it is intended to only serve as decoration or for, perharps, parade purposes.
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 1:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Artis Aboltins wrote:
Dan Howard wrote:
Roman Musculatas were made of metal not leather. There is no reason to suspect that Byzantine examples were not the same. There isn't a single shred of evidence to suggest that that this type of armour was ever made of leather.


Indeed it would really be a waste of good leather to make quirass out of it, un;ess it is intended to only serve as decoration or for, perharps, parade purposes.


I'm a little bit confused.
But there were, these leathter corselet or not. Although corselet parade. If there were, and are documented, then I do not see the problem. Happy
Were not necessarily been drawn in battle armor. They are just iconography.
This also applies to the starting point of the Varangian guard, most likely metal at this point.
Educate me, please.
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Gavin Kisebach




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 1:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Maurizio,

Here is an interesting piece of 9th century Carolingian art. This is an ivory carving of guards at the Holy Sepulcher, and I think it would be difficult to argue that this was anything but lamellar. So I think we can be reasonably sure that even the Carolingians were aware of lamellar, though we cannot yet prove that they used it.



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There are only two kinds of scholars; those who love ideas and those who hate them. ~ Emile Chartier
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 2:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:

I'm a little bit confused.
But there were, these leathter corselet or not. Although corselet parade. If there were, and are documented, then I do not see the problem. Happy
Were not necessarily been drawn in battle armor. They are just iconography.
This also applies to the starting point of the Varangian guard, most likely metal at this point.
Educate me, please.

Has anyone ever proved that Romans or Byzantines even HAD "parade armour"? One would have to do this before speculating on what it might have been made from.

IMO, even if it was never worn as such, if it can't function as a defense on the battlefield then it can't be defined as "armour." If there was such a thing as parade armour then it would still need to offer some sort of protection, otherwise it is simply a costume.
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 2:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan,
thanks for the keen observation.

Gavin,
I did not think that the Carolingians had lamellar armor.
Very interesting. Thanks.

Now some information for Raymond.
A page from the book and a photo.



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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Oct, 2009 4:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

in my other readings:

Infantry types and equipment
Their armor and weapons included:

κlivanion : the characteristic Byzantine lamellar cuirass, usually sleeveless.
lōrikion : mail hauberks, usually reserved for the armoured cavalry cataphracts.
kavadion : A padded leather or cotton under-garment, worn under the cuirass.
epilōrikion: A padded leather or cotton over-garment, worn over the cuirass.


Varangians
The Varangians served as the bodyguard (escort) of the emperor since the time of Basil II, and were generally considered to be well-disciplined and loyal so long as funds remained to pay them. Although most of them brought their weapons with them when entering the Emperor's service, they did gradually adopt Byzantine military dress and equipment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_battle_tactics

Now I can add: bambakion:A padded leather or cotton over-garment, leather very heavy

here colour photo.



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