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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Aug, 2008 9:24 pm    Post subject: Panzerhose         Reply with quote

Speak to me of panzerhose. Tell me everything.

I assume they're mail leggings. Are they quilted?

Attached are two 14-15th century examples found at the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum, München.

Are they simply cloth/quilted hosen with mail gussets? Is there mail covering other areas other than just the backs of the knees?



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Panzerhosen found at the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum, München

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Panzerhosen found at the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum, München

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Panzerhosen found at the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum, München

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panzerhose002b.jpg
Panzerhosen found at the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum, München

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Torsten F.H. Wilke




Location: Irvine Spectrum, CA
Joined: 01 Jul 2006

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PostPosted: Fri 08 Aug, 2008 10:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Seems like they might have had more mail sections around the knee area at one time, instead of that solitary patch behind the knees. Does anyone think there are some sort of small metal plates covering the leggings?

Btw, "Panzerhosen" literally means armour trousers in German....
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Aug, 2008 10:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan,

I have always thought it refered to mail leggings but cannot recall having seen any pictures of existant ones before so this is a first. I wonder if closer views might not show if at one time it had more mail. I suppose though that it could be both a fully mailed hose or just like gussetted hose and still retain the same name.

RPM
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Daniel Sullivan




Location: California
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PostPosted: Sat 09 Aug, 2008 1:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan,

Encountered this very subject several years ago. If I recall they are hosen or leggings worn under plate armor for the legs. The mail would at the opening to span the gap between the top and rear part of the greave and the hinged plate(s) protecting the outside and rear of the thigh.

Thanks for keeping this site in the Class Act category!

Regards,
Dan
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Craig Renaud




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 07 Sep 2017

Posts: 9

PostPosted: Fri 02 Jul, 2021 4:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Reviving this thread, because I'm having some trouble finding more information about these hose. I understand they are most likely an alternative to leg harness, but I want to model my armour fighting hose after them. I'm really wondering what they are made of. Certainly linen would be the most durable answer, but linen does not provide very much mobility for hose. A hard wool could work, but at least with these, there would be a concern of the plates rubbing through the fabric. Perhaps a linen warp, wool weft? Seems like a best of both worlds.

But surely there is a description somewhere from the museum just saying what material they are?
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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posts: 748

PostPosted: Fri 02 Jul, 2021 9:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Renaud wrote:
Reviving this thread, because I'm having some trouble finding more information about these hose. I understand they are most likely an alternative to leg harness, but I want to model my armour fighting hose after them. I'm really wondering what they are made of. Certainly linen would be the most durable answer, but linen does not provide very much mobility for hose. A hard wool could work, but at least with these, there would be a concern of the plates rubbing through the fabric. Perhaps a linen warp, wool weft? Seems like a best of both worlds.

But surely there is a description somewhere from the museum just saying what material they are?

This thread with X-ray photos of the iron plates inside might be helpful. In all the European texts from the 14th-16th century I have read, hose under cuisses and greaves are made of woolen cloth. Armour of small plates was usually built on a plain-weave linen or canvas base.

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Craig Renaud




Location: Toronto, Canada
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PostPosted: Sat 03 Jul, 2021 4:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Manning wrote:
This thread with X-ray photos of the iron plates inside might be helpful. In all the European texts from the 14th-16th century I have read, hose under cuisses and greaves are made of woolen cloth. Armour of small plates was usually built on a plain-weave linen or canvas base.


That is very helpful thank you! Yes, of course hose under leg harness would just be wool. I'm fully over complicating things for myself Razz
I am however glad to have taken a longer look at these, as the construction towards the top of the hose is actually very useful for making hose from historical width fabrics- involving piecing together of chevron-like pieces of bias material to make them tall enough. Something I thought would have to be so, but had no extant examples for.
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T. Kew




Location: London, UK
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PostPosted: Sat 03 Jul, 2021 5:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In Pietro Monte's discussion of light armour, he talks about making leg protection with mail sewn into hose.

There's a set of these reconstructed in the Art Institute of Chicago which has tiny metal plates sewn between two layers of fabric. I think they're based on something they have in the archives, but it's been some years since I visited and I can no longer remember exactly what the curator said about them.

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Craig Renaud




Location: Toronto, Canada
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Jul, 2021 4:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

T. Kew wrote:
In Pietro Monte's discussion of light armour, he talks about making leg protection with mail sewn into hose.

There's a set of these reconstructed in the Art Institute of Chicago which has tiny metal plates sewn between two layers of fabric. I think they're based on something they have in the archives, but it's been some years since I visited and I can no longer remember exactly what the curator said about them.


Ah, I have been meaning to make a trip to Chicago! Maybe COVID will be kind, and I'll be able to visit before too long.
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M. Benjamin S.




Location: Germany
Joined: 03 Jul 2014

Posts: 1

PostPosted: Mon 12 Jul, 2021 6:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is new research going on.

A treatise on the "Panzerhose" was recently published within a catalogue, presenting some special items kept at the Bayerisches Armeemuseum in Ingolstadt:

Christopher Retsch: Die Panzerhose im Bayerischen Armeemuseum. Hosen als Rüstungsteile im Spätmittelalter und in der Frühen Neuzeit. In: Plattenrock, Buckler und Conquistador. Aus der Schatzkammer des Bayerischen Armeemuseums. Kataloge des Bayerischen Armeemuseums Band 20. Ingolstadt 2021. Pages 190-211.

There is also another (short legged) "Panzerhose" kept at the Pitt Rivers Museum (Oxford) mentioned in the treatise of Christopher Retsch. Both can be dated from the very late 15th until the mid 16th century.

The catalogue is completlely in German, but will also be available in English soon. Fortunately the catalogue can be downloaded as PDF for free on the museum's website:
https://www.armeemuseum.de/de/ausstellungen/armeemuseum-im-neuen-schloss/schatzkammer.html
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