A quick search for "Dolch", 1400-1500 at http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/realonline/ proves that the behind-the-belt option is historically valid for all classes. There are hundreds of images. These few are from 1420 (through the purse straps) to 1469 (red tunic). The most interesting is ca. 1457 and shows the dagger of a wealthy knight worn behind the knot of a broad belt (buckled and knotted at the center of his back). Note that it's not thrust through the knot, as I first thought. Maybe that solves your problem.

Don't ask me why the figure in the third image below wears his dagger behind a puffer fish :confused:

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1355. Behind the belt? Hard to tell.

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I don't think so. This baselard appears to have a belt loop on the back of its sheath, as far as I can tell. It's hanging too straight and securly to be on a simple thong. Also, it appears its sheath is black, and the belt is brown with decorations. Funny how more daggers and knives don't use this relatively simple, yet stable suspension method. :confused:

Tight fitting sheaths are the key IMO. Knives and Scabbards have some dagger or large knife scabbards made of 2 layers of leather with no wood core. The inner layer is flesh side against the blade and the outer layer is flesh side out. Often the inner layer is held shut by adhesive while the outer layer is stitched. This could result in a tight fit.

I'm posting these pics for Chase S-R who will comment on them more.

The first pic doesn't show any suspension system. It's also partially hidden by a shield.

The second pic shows a dagger in front of a belt, with what might be ends of a thong sticking out from behind it. I'm not sure how it's attached.

The third shows a dagger, hilt-down, suspended by a thong but with the scabbard's tip tucked behind the belt.

The fourth shows a military man with his dagger and purse front and center.

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Thanks,
The last is 1350 from prauge origins in the cistercian monestary in vissi brod
the second to last is 1385 trebon, prauge
the first to are random pics of daggers and belts from 1365

I must say, this has been a most interesting thread.

Sean has showed us some pictures which clearly show daggers under belts which does seem a sensible place to put them. I was also quite interested in Tod's idea of threading the thongs through holes in the belt. It makes sense and even without historical evidence, I'd be very surprised if this wasn't ever done in the middle ages. This could well be what was happening in those effigies where the dagger just seems to float on the hip, although it may just be a neat way to portray the dagger hanging, similar to the way swords are depicted in line with the leg.

Here are some that aren't very detailed, but still are somewhat insightful.

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From the Romance of Alexander

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From the Romance of Alexander

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From the Romance of Alexander

One more, of ca. 1517. In this case, there's a hole in the belt and what appears to be a reinforcing grommet. As there are no other holes in the belt, this one may be explicitly intended for the suspension of a dagger/knife. But only one hole....

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There is a reference to the suspension of knives and daggers in "Knives and Scabbards" by Cowgill, Neergaard, and Griffiths. The material is copyrighted and I don't have permission to scan and attach any of it, but on pages 54 and 55 there are some drawings and text which clearly indicate what was normal suspension of the time. The authors indicate that the thong was the most widely used based on the number of archeological finds. They also reference the Devonshire Hunting Tapestries: Falconry for a comparison. Amazon may give you a peek at those two pages on a "look see." I think I'l pull the thong through the scabbard equally to create a smaller loop and knot each at the appropriate point with mine. I couldn't find anything to support this, but if I can think of it maybe our ancestors could as well?

Ron

Someone earlier referenced the Tres Riche Houres... it is the January page that he meant to reference...
and indeed the "problem" you are experiencing is illustrated clearly there.
Perhaps it wasn't considered a "problem" under those circumstances, in that I note one of the feasters (I can't help but think of Snickers now) is using a seax-like knife, while his dagger remains sheathed.
See attachment.

When I think on this, it occurs to me that hilt-downish certainly brings the dagger's display into prominence. Almost like a gunfighter with his pistol belt on low.
Perhaps there is a message being sent that way?
You have to think of an era in which padded cod-pieces was normal for men - we'd think of it as crude nowadays.

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From one of the15th century Devonshire Hunting Tapestrys.


[ Linked Image ]


Ed Thyberg

The cross on this dagger looks like it may be resting in cutouts in the top of the scabbard, the end facing us head on. If this is true, then a pommel heavy dagger would tend to rest more upright. Can anyone else see this? The shading directly below the oval end of what appears to be a cross is what I'm basing my assumption on.

Besides the fact that the attachment to the belt by means of a loop, as seen in other pictures above, is nicely shown, I doubt that there are two knifes. It basically looks like a hunting knife with riveted wood halves to the wde tang and a nail instead of a cross, as we see the the same type of construction in the "Messer" too.

There are extant examples of seaths for two knives; it does look like two when you see it at this size.

All answers that create more questions. Ya gotta love it!

Here are a few examples of how I fit my Windlass 'fighting dirk' to my Revival Clothing pouch and generic ring belt. Both methods seem to hold it quite tightly :cool:

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