[Roger Hooper]

I can’t help it, I must put another sword link into this thread. Here is one from around 1650, the same time that the early Walloons were being made. It is very knobby, but has many similarities, like a variation on the Walloon theme.

http://www.antiqueweaponstore.com/North%20Eur...201650.htm

[Werner Stiegler]

[quote]Two German Haudegen. I couldn't get a good translation of the word "hau" - the best I could come up with was a "hit the road sword", which doesn't make much sense. German speakers, please help. [ /quote]

"Haudegen" basically denotes a 16th century sword with a complex hilt and a definite cut-and-thrust blade. Most walloon swords would be considered to be Haudegen. "Degen" simply was the fasionable word for "sword" in the period in question and any type of sword was called a "Degen". But these days mostly Rapiers and Smallswords have come to be associated with the term, which is probably why somebody started calling singlehanded cut-and-thrust-swords from the periode "Haudegen".

[Roger Hooper]

I found this photo on an old thread over at SFI. It is claimed there that the date for this sword is 1630, but it seems to me that it should be at least 50 years later, maybe even into the 1700’s. It looks like a Walloon that has evolved a little.

The quillon has a different shape. The flattened area on the knucklebow has been replaced by the typical 17th century double-lobe shape. The biggest departure is a side branch on the outboard side that curves in to attach to the knucklebow. There may be a few other differences that are not apparent in this photo. The counterguards may not be as convex as in earlier versions, and their piercings may not be in the same big star and little moons style..


One thing I’ve noticed on 17th century Continental complex hilts. There may be a vertical branch that connects to the pommel on the outboard side of the hilt, but there is never a vertical branch on the inboard, thumb-ring side. There may be a diagonal branch that starts around the thumb-ring and curves to the knucklbow, but that is all. The purpose for this may be to prevent a too-tight fit for the hand that I’ve noticed on some British Mortuary swords and baskethilts.

[Adam Simmonds]

nice one - interestng thread and some great pics.

i've noticed that some of these hilt types have the guard bars attached to the pommel by screws, where others have the bars going into holes in the pommel.

were these two styles of attachment contemporary with one another? where they the products of different cutlers/ tastes/ regions or where they the result of different times?

if the two styles were not contemporary with each other, which came first?

and lastly - are there any mechanical or other advantages in using one style over the other? i find the attachment where the bars go into the pommel rather than being screwed on more aesthetically pleasing as the transition from guard to pommel is less complicated - smoother, but where there any practical purposes for using one over the other?

best, adam

[Roger Hooper]

I finally came across the definitive translation for a Haudegen while looking around the Fricker Historische Waffen website. A Haudegen is a Hewing Sword - as in hacking and hewing.

[Carl Massaro]

Mine is from about 1630:

[GG Osborne]

Here is a hint: In this period the regiments in both the Dutch and German States services were know by their Colonel's name. So, assuming that the "R" stands for "Regiment," I'd suggest looking for a Dutch or German regiment commanded by an "L.C."

[Nathan Robinson]

[Roger Hooper]

Here is another classic Dutch Walloon from around 1650. I found it over at Antiqueweaponsstore.com. The difference between this sword and most "classic" Walloons is that, instead of the typical star surrounded by 8 circles pattern in the side-ring plates, there are just round holes. This model was surely more economical than the ones with more complex piercings.

34 inch blade, 40 inches OAL. Thumb ring is hidden.

[Shahril Dzulkifli]

What do I have here is a Walloon sword taken from http://faganarms.com/:

[Roger Hooper]

Please indulge my obsession in putting up more Walloon photos.

Here is another mid 17th century Amsterdam Walloon. At 43 inches overall length it is a cavalry as opposed to a town guard version. Note the floret on the inboard, thumb ring side of the quillon. You can also see the Passau Wolf below the fuller.


There are many surviving originals of this type, all very much alike -- no doubt because the French decided to make it their official military sword.

I found this one over at Bolk Antiques. The price for Walloons is going up. It is going for $5,455.00. The one in the first picture of this thread went for $3,500.00 back in 2008 (different vendor) and it was in qualitatively better shape.

[Morgan Butler]

I really love this thread! I may have a pic somewhere with a late 17th cen. walloon hilt with a hollow ground blade.
I'll look for it.

[Gottfried P. Doerler]

I`ve taken this photo at the castle of ambras, innsbruck, some time ago.
look like walloons, but i think rather 16th than 17th century. (im not sure, but the rest of the collection is more 16th cent.)

[Christopher Treichel]

Just lurking but since you requested a translation from the German for Haudegen- hitting sword. reference is to a sword used to cut such as a cut and thrust sword. Anothere reference is to a person with combat experience but that does not apply in this case (btw I am a bit fascinated by swords with thumb rings such as Schiavona)

Compiled and translated from the German Duden
Meanings:
[1] in the sword used in the 17. century with two cutting edges for hitting and cutting (cut and thrust) (oddly enough another dictionary specified that it only had one main edge and only a partial back edge like a backsword)
[2] carried over from the weapon: a soldier with fighting experience, who thourgh his ways exempliefies his expereince... i.e. beligerent
Origin
Compositum out of the Deverbativ to the Verb hauen (Subtraktionsfuge „-en“) and the Substantiv Degen

[Roger Hooper]

Here are some photos of, in my opinion, the perfect Felddegen. All hilt elements are in balance with each other. The lobes on knuckleguard and branch are prominent, but, unlike some other contemporary swords, not so exaggerated that they bump into the back of your hand.

German, from around 1650, overall length - 39.17 inches.

Photos from Hermann-Historica

[Nathan Robinson]

[Roger Hooper]

[Stephen Curtin]

Hey guys here's another interesting walloon I've found with a all steel hilt

http://www.antiques.co.uk/antique/UNUSUAL-C17...---RETAILE

[Roger Hooper]

Here is a Walloon variation with an unusual pommel

Length - 89cm overall

From Hermann-Historica

[Carl Massaro]

Gottfried,

It looks like I own one of those swords in your picture from castle Ambras. It looks exactly the same as the ones in your pic. I recently purchased it:















I purchased it from Germany. It was listed as a Felddegen, circa 1700. I think it is earlier.

Maybe they sold some? Or a large number of them were made?

The thing that strikes me is the wicked point on the blade. I thought it was done later, but all of the examples in your castle Ambras pic have the same point.

Roger,

The photo you listed earlier also looks similar to mine. Where is it from?