[Bennison N]

I recognise a few of those wooden Pacific Island weapons. A couple of my cousins are half Fijian, and they have a hooking club and shark tooth sword (although the teeth are wooden on theirs) at home. Scary looking, and they weigh a lot, but I suppose the average Fijian is big, and certainly strong, enough for this not to be too much of a problem. As I understand, you hook the "beak" of the club around the opponent's neck and pull them forward onto the "blade" of the shark tooth sword, which then puts them instantly out of commission. That's a pretty cool technique...

By the way Julian, that Madu is awesome! I've seen a Madu in action in India before... I'm not exactly sure how they get it to move like that, they must have incredibly flexible wrists. I'm talking about the side to side movements when the forearm seems to completely twist around. Unfortunately, I don't have any films or photos to show you what I mean.

And that Bichwa you made is beautiful as well. You can just tell by looking at it how effective it could be.

Outside of the Khukri, which is really Nepal and not India, I don't think Indian weapons and systems get enough attention. I was very privileged to be allowed to take four lessons in a Kalari in Punjab, and I was very impressed with the all-round nature of Kalaripayattu. And my muscles, which are no strangers to hard work, were aching for 2 days afterwards each time. They have a very wide range of weapons taught there, and I was lucky enough to see most of them.

[Julian Reynolds]

Re-read my last post, and realised it's a bit misleading - the Madu I made is not the one in the pic (mine was a lot plainer looking!). Don't have pics because it was a long time ago.

Bennison, you are one lucky man! I would love to learn how to use some of the many weird and wonderful weapons from the Indian subcontinent. Many years ago, I got a copy of Stone's 'Glossary...' and was blown away by the Indian weapons. I can spend hours in the Oriental section of the Leeds Armouries but, as far as I know, they very rarely demonstrate these weapons systems.

Mind you, I can't see how you could possible demonstrate throwing the Sikh 'chakkar' indoors!! Here's a pic of a Sikh Nihang's 'Dastaar Boonga' or Warrior's Turban. Notice the 'chakkar' quoits and the 'bagh nakha' tiger claw. Awesome. imagine fighting whilst wearing that lot!

Sorry for hijacking your thread, Bennison.

[Bennison N]

No problem, Julian... discussing Indian weapons is just another step closer, geographically, to discussing Chinese weapons... And then one more step and we're in wooden weapon heaven (Japan, Okinawa and the Phillipines), so to speak. Haha!

I knew that that wasn't the Madu you made, the wording of your post wasn't that difficult to understand. It was still a really nice one, though...

Yeah, I definitely lucked out when I went to India... I originally went there on a historical quest to find where Bodhidharma (Damo) was from and work backwards through China, following the development of Chinese Martial Arts, and hoping to get whipped enough times to actually learn something. I ended up staying much longer than I had planned, and my girlfriend of the time (who was Chinese and waiting there for me) thought I had been kidnapped or murdered or something.

I had a close friend with me to translate, and was able to get humiliated in front of about 300 people, over and over again, while wrestling with the biggest Indian guy I've ever seen (I let him win... haha!), see real life market demonstrations of Indian fighting (including Madu, and the rope trick by possible Fakirs), have wooden sword (broomsticks and tree branches used as swords really, but really fun) matches with members of the 1st Battalion (2nd Punjab) Guards Brigade of the Indian Army at their camp and train at a Kalari in Chandigarh. I was allowed to train there as long as I didn't take in a camera or a cellphone (probably because it had a camera), ate the same foods while I was there (simple vegetarian dishes) and promised never to tell exactly what they did in there. I still use the exercises I learnt there now, almost every day.

I can say that Kalaripayattu has a whole lot of different weapons systems and bases movements on those of animals even more than most forms of Indonesian Silat and most of the many Chinese animal styles of Unarmed Fighting do. It's amazing. If they weren't so secret about it, it would probably be a very popular Martial Art worldwide.

I can also say that everyone should go to India for a holiday at least once. It's a cool place... Elephants and cars in traffic together, marijuana growing down the side of the road (I'm not joking), some of the best food anywhere, and if you know where to look, a whole separate world of martial arts. It's awesome! Go there!

[Max Chouinard]

[Jean Thibodeau]

Thanks Maxime and I'm glad you are promoting it rather than trying to keep it a secret.

I just thought I should be prudent about how much to say about it without having your O.K. first.

Maybe you can give a day seminar on it with " Les Duellistes " eventually. ( Travelling isn't practical for me as I take care of my 88 year old Mom, so going to Quebec city doesn't work for me ).

Oh, I bough 3 of the Coldsteel shillelagh but I'm not sure if you would like them or not: One good thing is that for practice they are almost indestructible. They may be too flexible compared to wood and I think not as hard. They are moulded from solid polypropylene.

Anyway if you give a course I can bring them and you can minimize damage to your nice wooden ones I assume you have.
http://www.coldsteel.com/91pbs.html

A Canadian or American source for nice shillelagh might be nice to know if you know of one.

I guess the techniques would work with other kinds of walking stick ?

Playing with my 3' long Viking axe made by Eric McHugh I can sort of imagine how the use of a medium axe could similar to a heavy headed club: Basic balance being the same but the sharp edge of the axe may mean that lighter blows that might be ineffective with the club could be lethal with the axe.

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...viking+axe

[Max Chouinard]

[Max Chouinard]

Talking about the knobkerry, the stick mostly associated with the famous Zulu warriors. Also called Shilluk in Sudan. Seems it is still in usage in some tribes, commonfolks and by policemen (here in kenya). Interestingly it seems it was also common practice to incise a mark each time you would win a fight with it, much like it was done in Ireland.

Also another trench club, this german one seems to have been filled with lead at his core, again a common practice in Ireland (called loaded stick). http://bp3.blogger.com/_cODTxzY0ZGg/RwqCJMkXC...-nails.jpg

[Max Chouinard]

Oh and while were at it, another well known club, the amerindian war club, coming in many shapes but the most popular one seemed to be the ball headed (and sometiem spiked) one. I did not knew this maker but he seems to make very nice stuff: http://www.nativeworkshop.com/warclubs.htm

[Shahril Dzulkifli]

Here is a Maori war club or Patu. The engravings symbolize facing and overcoming life's difficulties and challenges.

[Bennison N]

The meaning behind Maori carvings and tattoos, in particular the patterns, is defined by each individual creation and the emotional intent of the creator. For example, I have my left arm tattooed in a very similar pattern to that on Shahril's Patu, but it is to symbolise the members of my family.

You can also call these weapons Mere (interestingly, "patu" also happens to be a Maori slang word for disgusting or dirty, although the "T" is pronounced more as a "D" in that instance...), and they are the standard (certainly the most popular historically...) sidearm of a traditional Maori warrior. This is actually more like an axe than a club, as they are made with a fairly sharp edge and a thin profile, especially ones made from stone.

Attack-wise, they use short and very quick flicking hand movements, relying almost solely on wrist strength... and in a very logical and well developed system... For instance, a famous and widely taught but very rarely mastered (despite what a Maori fighter would say) technique with the Patu is said to invariably remove the entire top of the skull if performed correctly. Up close, this weapon is incredibly effective.

There are many varieties of Patu, and they are not only made of wood, but many different materials, including stone (especially greenstone, AKA nephrite) and bone (especially whale). The stone ones are far more prized than the wooden ones, but the more famous wooden ones are replicated far more often. The one in Shahril's photo is a good example of the most common shape, and it has the flaxen rope loop. This is to keep the weapon in the hand for certain twirling and grip-change techniques and is why there is a hole in the handle of every example I'll show you.

Another type I have photos of, as wooden, is called a Patuki. They are longer, with a thicker cross-section and a more pointed end (comparatively...).

[Bennison N]

Another type is known as a Wahaika. The difference is obvious.

[Bennison N]

One last type. Unfortunately, I was unable to find photos of wooden examples, but this type is known as Kotiate.

These particular Kotiate are both made from Whale Bone.

[Bennison N]

And as a bonus, because we have been discussing Maori weaponry quite a lot lately, I have some other pics to show you. Unfortunately I can't remember where I got them from, but I suspect it was the Dominion Museum in Wellington. I am almost entirely certain the Robley drawing print is from there.

The photo shows that which is fairly consistently what a Maori Warrior would historically take into battle, weaponry-wise. Of course, if he was more proficient in a certain weapon, he would carry a replacement. It appears that whoever this particular kit belonged to preferred the Taiaha, because there are two of them. There are some common types this Warrior didn't carry, but you get the idea, I hope.

The axe-head is rare, probably traded for land with a European Settler, as the Maori never developed metal-working technology before the arrival of Europeans. The Patu and the tomahawk (Patiti in Maori) head are made from stone (that is what onewa means...), but the rest is all wooden.

And of course a drawing by Major-General Horatio Gordon Robley (1840-1930), who fought in the Maori Wars, as an Ensign, from 1863 until 1866 (when he returned to England and was then sent to fight Mauritians and Zulus instead). It is of a Maori Warrior performing a pukana, which I mentioned earlier in the thread, and still liken to a Maori kiai...

Robley himself is a very interesting character. He collected the perfectly preserved, and entirely tattooed heads of Maori chiefs... A traditional Maori skill (they have a very secret and near-perfect preserving process) and show of respect for the tattoos (and the chiefs)... eventually having 35 of them, which he sold (except for 5) for 1,250 pounds sterling, sometime around 1908, to the Natural History Museum in New York.

[Julian Reynolds]

Bennison,

Here's a few more to add to your Maori weapons, including a rather nice 'Maripi' set with shark's teeth.

The final pic is from the Australian Museum, Sydney. After a 6 months at sea, eating salt beef and weevil-ridden biscuits, the last person I would want to meet on an island paradise, is this chap!

Julian

[Bennison N]

That Kiribati guy's armour is pretty cool, isn't it? You'd certainly hope your powder was dry and your sword was sharp if you saw that running at you screaming, wouldn't you?

That is a really nice Maripi as well. I have heard, however, that Maripi are really more a cutting tool than an actual battle weapon. I would definitely wager that a lot of them were used as weapons, though... Especially if a band of slave-hunters from another tribe rocked into your village and started tying everyone up. I could see Maori women, who are every bit as tough as the men, grabbing whatever they had close to hand to defend their Marae, and for a while there in Maori history, to avoid being dinner...

[Shahril Dzulkifli]

Bennison,
For your information the Patu pictured above doesn't belong to me. I took it from some website.
Actually I did not know what are the meanings behind every Maori carving. Because you're from New Zealand you must be an expert on this.

[Bennison N]

Shahril,

It was a nice Patu. It didn't look like the usual tourist item you see most often these days.

Hey, if that's what the website said that the carvings mean, then that'll be it. Each individual carving has the meaning that the carver gives to it. Maori artists put a lot of emotion into their work... I apologise if I somehow offended you with my earlier post, mate.

I'm certainly not an expert on this, but have had a lot of exposure to it (it is our second language after all, and basic phrases and folksongs are taught from the earliest days of school...), and I'm a very small part Maori by blood. This, and the fact that I participated in many warrior-training exercises and challenge matches over the years, is the reason I have the warrior tattoo. I'm very lucky to have been offered the opportunity to have this traditionally done, most people just go and get one at a tattoo parlour because they like the patterns.

To be perfectly honest, not many Maori are experts either... these days. The experts are few and far between, but they are incredibly knowledgeable on the subject. I knew one once. My close friend's late mother was often said to be a Tohunga, which is like a sorcerer or prophet of the old ways of Maori Makutu, which can be likened to Voodoo or magic, I suppose. I asked her about that, she denied it, and we never discussed it again, but she really knew almost all there was to know about carvings, legends and the like. That level of knowledge is very rare indeed.

[Shahril Dzulkifli]

A pre-1870 Sioux war club from the Cheyenne River Reservation, now kept at the University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, Philadelphia.

[Bennison N]

Shahril,

Do you know what that ball-head is made from, by any chance? The spike certainly looks metallic, so maybe the ball is as well.

That's an awesome weapon... You definitely wouldn't want to get in the way of that, would you? I would say, imagining the way that that head would distribute the weight, and the power you could build in a swing, that it would pretty much pierce anything that was in front of it.

I found this picture of some replicas of very old Native American War Clubs, from the Cocopah Tribe, originally of California. I hope the big ol' webpage address smack in the middle doesn't ruin the intimidation effect of these awesome primitive wooden weapons (Mesquite wood) too much. The cochineal dye on some of these is a sign of status for that tribe, and as we know, is made of crushed insects...

The club in the middle is 16 inches tall, and weighs over 5 pounds. A very powerful man would have used the original that was based on...

[Lafayette C Curtis]