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Rodolfo Martínez
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 Posted: Sat 17 May, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: Iron Lamellar for western knights and Byzantine soldiers |
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Hello guys!
Do you know if lamellar armour was adopted by western knights during XIII or XIV century?
And waht about Byzantine knights or men-at-arms?
Do you know if anyone (Byzantine or western) used lamellar over the full mail armour?
Thanks
P.D.
I´m not refering to the coat of plates.
There are some sites showing recreated Byzantine men-at-arms carrying lamellar over mail.
Do you know if there is any art piece showing this accuratelly? (And not Icons)
¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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D. Nogueira
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Sat 17 May, 2008 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Rodolfo! How are you doing? (Weird to talk to you in English :P)
Do you mean strictly lamellar armour? Because I may have something about scale armour.
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Scott Kowalski
Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 818
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| Posted: Sat 17 May, 2008 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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Rodolfo,
In the Osprey Publishing book Knight of Outremer Warrior #18 is a plate of what you are looking for I think. It is plate I and it is supposed to be from a tournament on Isthmus of Corinth, AD 1302. It seems that the participants were knights from all over Latin Greece. Unfortunately it does not list any provenance.
Scott
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Antal László
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| Posted: Sun 18 May, 2008 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| D. Nogueira wrote: | Hi Rodolfo! How are you doing? (Weird to talk to you in English :P)
Do you mean strictly lamellar armour? Because I may have something about scale armour. |
Hi,
I know that it would be off topic, but I do not want to start a new thread for this. So, what have you got about scale armor?
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Scott Kowalski
Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 818
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| Posted: Sun 18 May, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| Antal László wrote: | | D. Nogueira wrote: | Hi Rodolfo! How are you doing? (Weird to talk to you in English :P)
Do you mean strictly lamellar armour? Because I may have something about scale armour. |
Hi,
I know that it would be off topic, but I do not want to start a new thread for this. So, what have you got about scale armor? |
Antal,
The plate I mention in my previous post calls it scale and the illustration done for the book clearly shows it being worn over mail. The sleeves on the scale come down halfway between the shoulders and elbows. The knight in question is also shown wearing what looks like scale gauntlets of some kind. I know I have seen bone gauntlets both referenced and illustrated in books before. I'm just not sure how accurate that is. I hope this helps as it is something I am interested in as well and am researching.
Scott
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Rodolfo Martínez
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| Posted: Sun 18 May, 2008 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| D. Nogueira wrote: | Hi Rodolfo! How are you doing? (Weird to talk to you in English :P)
Do you mean strictly lamellar armour? Because I may have something about scale armour. |
Hello. (Yep, it sounds weird  )
I´m refering to byzantine lamellar armour.
Were those sleeves truly used with the lamellar, or they are just artist´s licence?
¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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D. Nogueira
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Sun 18 May, 2008 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Guys,
Antal:
About scale armour, there's a very nice picture in page 41 of "Arms and armour of the Medieval Knight (Edge & Paddock)" that shows a warrior's statue from early thirteenth century at Rheims Cathedral wearing scale armour.
The book states that it is "Probably" modelled on a contemporary (Early XIII c.) Byzantine warrior.
There's also Osprey's "Men at arms - Byzantine armies 1118 - 1461 AD" showing some interesting stuff.
Of course I don't indulge piracy, but I've heard there are copies of that in the web (In .pdf format) on p2p networks.
If someone is really interested I encourage them to buy the original copy and not download them.
Last edited by D. Nogueira on Sun 18 May, 2008 2:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Scott Kowalski
Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 818
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| Posted: Sun 18 May, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| D. Nogueira wrote: | Hi Guys,
Antal:
About scale armour, there's a very nice picture in page 41 of "Arms and armour of the Medieval Knight (Edge & Paddock) that shows a warrior's statue from early thirteenth century at Rheims Cathedral wearing scale armour.
The book states that it is "Probably" modelled on a contemporary (Early XIII c.) Byzantine warrior.
I don't have a digital picture readily available, but I could scan it if anyone is really interested.
Saludos! |
I would be interested as I have not been able to get a reasonably priced copy of the book.
Scott
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D. Nogueira
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Sun 18 May, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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Scott:
Ok, I've got it. The problem is... where do I upload it? :P
Have a little patience... sooner or later I'll learn 
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Scott Kowalski
Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 818
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| Posted: Sun 18 May, 2008 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| D. Nogueira wrote: | Scott:
Ok, I've got it. The problem is... where do I upload it? :P
Have a little patience... sooner or later I'll learn |
If you email it to me I will get it posted for all to see.
Scott
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Scott Kowalski
Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 818
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| Posted: Sun 18 May, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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Here is the picture that D. Nogueira was speaking of.
Scott
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sun 18 May, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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It is scale armour, not lamellar. And the illustration is depicting a charactiture of an "oriental" soldier. It is not representing an actual person and is definitely not representing western Eueropean armour at the time.
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D. Nogueira
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Sun 18 May, 2008 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | It is scale armour, not lamellar. And the illustration is depicting a charactiture of an "oriental" soldier. It is not representing an actual person and is definitely not representing western Eueropean armour at the time. |
I will repeat again what has been previously posted about the picture, in order to avoid confusion.
| D. Nogueira wrote: |
About scale armour, there's a very nice picture in page 41 of "Arms and armour of the Medieval Knight (Edge & Paddock) that shows a warrior's statue from early thirteenth century at Rheims Cathedral wearing scale armour.
The book states that it is "Probably" modelled on a contemporary (Early XIII c.) Byzantine warrior.
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Scott Kowalski
Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 818
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Rodolfo Martínez
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| Posted: Sun 18 May, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks guys!
Scott, i opened this topic because i have seen such drawings
They are really weird, Do you think if byzantine soldiers looked like them? I don´t trust in icons very much...
¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Scott Kowalski
Location: Oak Lawn, IL USA Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 818
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| Posted: Mon 19 May, 2008 4:49 am Post subject: |
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I'm not really sure Rodolfo. There has been talk that a shirt of either lamellar or scale was found at Wisby that looks to be older and modified. It is in one of the threads that my earlier link leads to. I really do not know that much about Byzantine soldiers though that may change as I am doing research for the time around the fall of Acre to the Hospitallers invasion of Rhodes.
I would also imagine that more than one piece of lamellar armor would have made it to western Europe from mercenaries working for Byzantium when they went home. Just a thought there from me though.
Scott
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Sean Belair
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 19 May, 2008 9:49 am Post subject: |
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a book i have on the normans states that norman knights in italy adopted byzantine armor
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This is a standard topic