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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sat 17 May, 2008 8:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
This leads to other conundrums though, at least to me. This may be heresy for many of you, but I am somewhat ambivalent towards the higher end production lines, e.g., Albion. Historically accurate in dimensions and hilt construction for sure, beautiful works of technological art no doubt. But are they TOO perfect to be historical?


Ah, now we're getting into another discussion entirely. I have my thoughts/theories on this, but maybe a new thread should be started. Happy

To get back to my main original point. In my opinion: If you're testing historically inspired swords and you're interested in historical performance, the best test media would be replicas (as accurate as possible) of what the weapon was designed to face. If those aren't available/affordable (and many aren't, like good riveted mail), then there are simulators of varying qualities that should be used.

I find tests against non-historic materials (tires, plywood, concrete, etc.) to have little value, at least to me. They will tell you if a sword is durable, but not if that durability came at the sacrifice of accuracy in some fashion.

In an ideal world (which we don't live in), we'd establish baselines for performance based on the performance of antiques. Barring that, the tester would have to use their knowledge of antiques to interpret the results in that context, which some reviewers already do. As that will have inherent subjectivity, we must know that it may be difficult to have truly objective standards.

In my opinion. Happy

Since I seem to be repeating myself, I'll bow out of this thread unless I have something new to add. Happy

Happy

ChadA

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Justin King
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PostPosted: Sun 18 May, 2008 6:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

D. Nogueira wrote:




Why? To test what modern swords can do, the only thing we need to test are... modern swords.
I get your idea however.



If we are going this far then perhaps we should stop calling them swords because they are no longer used as weapons?
Folks will disagree on this and I think this is natural but for many of us the basis for this interest is rooted in history and context. Take that away and what we have are decorations that have no practical use in the modern world and with this much seperation from their origins I would have a hard time calling them weapons anymore. Collect what you want, I want SWORDS, not props, pool-noodle cutting utensils or tatami killers.
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Sun 18 May, 2008 8:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The questions; "what was an actual period sword's; durability, cutting power, thrusting capacity, etc" are valid and appropriate for the objectives of this web site. Unless someone reproduces the actual metallurgical properties as well as the dimensions of an artifact, we will not really know. Patrick Barta has made some pattern welded swords (Blucima ?) starting from raw iron ores, and using only traditional-subjective control and methods throughout the manufacture. One could simulate piled construction, traditional methods, similar grade materials, and produce a test sword that approximates a historical sword more realistically than a premium material grade reproduction. I admire this kind of hand done, traditional craft work greatly. But, I personally don't want to pay that price point for a sword that is deliberately made inconsistent in terms of carbon content and heat treat quality control compared to our present day alloy reproductions that strive to deliver optimal spring steel performance. I really would not want to wreck such an artisan's creation either!

Comparing reproductions ("good", "below average", "similar to brand X model Y", based on qualified reviewers subjective testing and experience) is also useful, and probably at least equally valued by collectors like me who can't afford a rare artifact. If you talk to actual knife and blade makers, many will tell you that they do learn to judge and control their manufacturing processes by eye, feel, and experience. The experienced ones generally know when they have produced a "satisfactory" blade without scientific test equipment. Similarly, the myArmoury reviewers have many years of test cutting, collecting, and subjective comparison experience with hundreds of reproductions. I fully trust people like Chad to adequately assess something subjectively as "very good", "satisfactory", or "below average" in relation to some similar reproduction. When they get permission to test cut with a donor sword, the reviewers do sometimes comment about this. If there is a perceived problem, I would trust them to bring it up. In general, I believe that the bulk of the reproduction makers frequently recommended here are being recommended because they consistently produce blades and assembly that are "acceptable" to "very good" by these reviewers' subjective (and in my opinion qualified) expectations.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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William J. Cameron




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PostPosted: Wed 21 May, 2008 3:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How and in what a forged sword is quenched, and how tempered would of importance, to it's performance. I know next to nothing about that.
The comparision of stock removal and it's tempering, to a forged blade's quenching and tempering would be of interest to me.

I have read fleetingly, of hot oil, cold water, warm water, , flowing water, still water, water with additives like salt water, or other additives, which I no longer remember and that was just in passing. It could well be the descriptions were but fiction with no basis in fact..

There appears to be in many cultures many ways of quenching a sword.
There must also be different methods of tempering a sword.

After quenching, the japanese sword used a clay, sandstone and charcoal mix to coat the blade above the hard temper line of the edge.
Was something like that used in Europe?
The Japanese swords also used a soft iron core after @ 800 or it could have been later @1000, to assure the sword did not break.
Is there any evidence of such a teqnique used in Europe or India?
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 21 May, 2008 3:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William J. Cameron wrote:
The Japanese swords also used a soft iron core after @ 800 or it could have been later @1000, to assure the sword did not break.
Is there any evidence of such a teqnique used in Europe or India?


At least some military swords of the 17th or 18th century were made with an iron core surrounded by steel.

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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Wed 21 May, 2008 7:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There was an examination of a "Spanish" (Toledo) steel sword that was found to have a similar construction of softer iron core surrounded by harder / higher carbon outer steel. The method (twisting rods of varying carbon content giving rise to the original "Damascined" term, some portions of the blade being "pack carburized" in local clay and ash) was supposedly introduced there by Moores.
One early (B.C.) Etruscan sword and several early finds from the region of Italy also appeared to have a high carbon layer in the cutting edge. The idea of composite or piled construction is not exclusive to a region or period. You can get flexibility and edge hardness this way, but in terms of total blade breakage, will not match a good homogeneous spring steel's integrity.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Thu 22 May, 2008 1:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would like to thank those of you who tried to answer my original question, and those of you who have argued with the premise in an intelligent way; that's what makes this site interesting. My opinion is obviously that more objective standards will improve the field. If people keep talking about this issue, great, but like Chad said above, I don't want to keep flogging the same horse over and over in the same thread, so I'll bow out now. -JD
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