Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Cutting test, Atrim Legacy line XIIIa Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next 
Author Message
Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 870

PostPosted: Wed 16 Apr, 2008 3:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Christian for your answer,

I wasn't really disputing the meaning of 'an', if Germans say it means 'on' the shoulder as in touching then I take their word for it.

But from the passages you quoted it seemed to me that vom tag is described as two possibilities: on the shoulder or over the head. Or I'm misunderstanding the quotes completely... So what I thought was that maybe these two versions can be used at different phases of the fight with different intent. In this case the overhead and on-the-shoulder vom tag are both martially valid, it's just that they are not used exactly in the same way or context during the fight. If the illustrations show the starting position it's not too surprising to often see the most relaxed version.

That, and during the action of a cut there are plenty of intermediate positions that are not necessarily described as guards, depending on the trajectory and the way you want to generate power. It's what was thinking of when I said:

Quote:
start at the shoulder, raise the sword a bit, say head level, then cut, all during the step?


I wasn't thinking about cocking the weapon back and up all the way to overhead, I was thinking about a small motion forward and up then the actual cut forward and down. It seems natural as it just means you can end with the same trajectory whether starting from overhead or on-the-shoulder, instead of systematically having a lower trajectory when striking from the shoulder variant.

Another alternative could be to first transition to the overhead position, but it seems an unnecessary waste of time in this case.

This small arching motion may be opposite to the principles of fencing, but I'd be surprised because in kenjutsu it's quite common and taught.

Regards,

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Christian Henry Tobler




Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 704

PostPosted: Wed 16 Apr, 2008 3:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
But from the passages you quoted it seemed to me that vom tag is described as two possibilities: on the shoulder or over the head. Or I'm misunderstanding the quotes completely... So what I thought was that maybe these two versions can be used at different phases of the fight with different intent. In this case the overhead and on-the-shoulder vom tag are both martially valid, it's just that they are not used exactly in the same way or context during the fight. If the illustrations show the starting position it's not too surprising to often see the most relaxed version.


Well, here's an interesting thing Vincent...both variations are described, but in the actual plays the shoulder one gets just about all the mention. The exception is that when describing a technique using the Zwerchhau (a high, roughly horizontal blow) to counter this guard, it explicitly mentions the over the head variant. Certainly, both versions of the guard have their advantages.

I don't think there's any sense of using both at once, as a couple of treatises make a big point of going directly to the target, "as if a string were attached from your point to the openings of the man." And, the high position is shown substantially high in all the versions I've seen illustrated, so I think it would be a really long and odd movement to move from the shouldered position, to over the head, and then to the target.

Quote:
I wasn't thinking about cocking the weapon back and up all the way to overhead, I was thinking about a small motion forward and up then the actual cut forward and down. It seems natural as it just means you can end with the same trajectory whether starting from overhead or on-the-shoulder, instead of systematically having a lower trajectory when striking from the shoulder variant.


Ah, thanks for the clarification. The thing is, it's actually not hard, with practice, to move the weapon fast and hard from this position. As to whether I'd agree with what you propose, I think I'd have to see it first.

Quote:
This small arching motion may be opposite to the principles of fencing, but I'd be surprised because in kenjutsu it's quite common and taught.


Now that I better understand what you're proposing, I don't think it inherently violates those principles. The real thing to avoid is anything that removes threat, rather than creating it, as you begin an attack, or counterattack for that matter.

All the best,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Northern VA,USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 4,194

PostPosted: Wed 16 Apr, 2008 10:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For whatever its worth, the high version of Vom Tag is far more difficult to hold when in full plate harness when compared to the shoulder variant. Certain harnesses would allow it better than others, but nice, full pauldrons do limit what the arms can do to an extent. I don't think its a very big surprise that the 15th c. sources use it so often (because whether you are fighting in armour or not, it is still part of the same system), and yet the 16th c. sources that show the more sport-oriented fighting, without an armoured component, seem to focus more on the high version of vom tag.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand


"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Johan S. Moen




Location: Kristiansand, Norway
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Posts: 259

PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 2:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian Henry Tobler wrote:

Merck die hůtt haist vom tag | do schick dich also mit | Stee mit dem lincken fües vor | und halt dein swert an deiner rechten achsel oder mit auff gerackten armen hoch über dein haubt | und stee also in der hůt

And the translation,

"Note, the guard vom Tag, his do thus: Stand with the left foot forward and hold your sword on your right shoulder or with outstretched arms high over your head and stand thus in the guard."


Christian; technically, I would not personally translate "an" as "on" in this context. I'd rather translate it as "at", or even better as "besides"/"parallel to". The word "on" in english, if used in this context, doesn't really tell us precisely where to hold the guard, and is a wee bit confusing(in my opinion).

Other than that, I agree with the interpretation of the guard itself.

Johan Schubert Moen
View user's profile Send private message
Christian Henry Tobler




Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 704

PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 6:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's a bit contextual Johan. If you say to hold a rifle "an der Schulter" someone's going to lay the rifle on the shoulder.

And certainly, 'on' is one of several English words appearing in any English-German dictionary, along with 'at', while 'over' isn't.

All the best,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Benjamin H. Abbott




Location: New Mexico
Joined: 28 Feb 2004

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,248

PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 7:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, there's no such thing as a light blow to your unprotected head; that, I can speak to from experience.


I've read many examples of humans taking cuts to the head and remaining able to fight or flee. I don't think you can count on light cuts to the head disabling.
View user's profile Send private message
Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 333

PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 8:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan S. Moen wrote:
...I would not personally translate "an" as "on" in this context. I'd rather translate it as "at", or even better as "besides"/"parallel to".

Johan

"At" or "besides" the shoulder? Would such a position would be identical to the Second Guard (aka Right Shoulder) shown in I.33? Your translation shines a clearer light on the issue because if a person was standing the Second Guard of I.33 was to drop their buckler and place their left hand on the hilt/pomel of their sword would be in the same position I was suggesting to Michael in my first post.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
View user's profile Send private message
Christian Henry Tobler




Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 704

PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 8:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Benjamin,

True, and there's an awesome story where one soldier was struck with a halberd that went 2/3 the way into his brain, for instance, but he then went to the surgeon's tent (and the incident involved an allegation of cheating at dice, not a battle). But what I mean is that you'll be affected by the blow:

I was struck accidentally by a fellow instructor while assisting him in his class. He hit me above my right eye with a roughly 2 lb. blunt single hander. He just barely missed pulling his blow properly, so he likely hit me about 1/4 power. It rendered me fully senseless for 2 full seconds.

Was I 'incapacitated' by this blow? No, but in those 2 seconds he could've hit me twice more. And if he'd hit me for real, with a sharp, he'd have shattered my face.

Now even an open faced helmet would've mitigated the blow, as the edge of the face opening would've caught most of it in this case. But without protection, you're simply not going to act as if nothing happened - it is going to unglue your game.

Best,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,310

PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 8:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
For whatever its worth, the high version of Vom Tag is far more difficult to hold when in full plate harness when compared to the shoulder variant. Certain harnesses would allow it better than others, but nice, full pauldrons do limit what the arms can do to an extent. I don't think its a very big surprise that the 15th c. sources use it so often (because whether you are fighting in armour or not, it is still part of the same system), and yet the 16th c. sources that show the more sport-oriented fighting, without an armoured component, seem to focus more on the high version of vom tag.


Wouldn't the high version also expose the armpit only protected by a voider and a prime target to a thrust ?

Also on the shoulder the sword tip would tend to be already cocked towards the rear and would do two things: Give a larger arc with which to accelerate the sword and secondly remove the temptation to get this extra arc by cocking back the sword which also is very much telegraphing the move.

I could be wrong but when held close to the shoulder but not touching the shoulder there is more of a tendency to hold the sword vertically meaning less power from that position and the extra temptation to cock back ? ( move sword first should also be easier to do ? ).

I will have to mention this to my trainer as we do tend to not start in contact with the shoulder, and that although touching the shoulder was mentioned as an " optional way ", this discussion leads me to believe that it is more mandatory or at very least much more optimum to start in contact on the shoulder: At the very least I will have to try to do it consistently this way.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Jason G. Smith




Location: Quebec
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 130

PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 8:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean - just out of curiosity, are you training under Patrick de Marchi? If so, he's very open-minded, so you shouldn't have too much trouble approaching him. I know that at least until our last meeting, they were holding Vom Tag high - glad to see they've adopted the 'an' shoulder version.
Les Maîtres d'Armes
Member of the
Chivalric Fighting Arts Association

... above all, you should feel in your conscience that your quarrel is good and just. - Le Jeu de la Hache
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,310

PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 10:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jason G. Smith wrote:
Jean - just out of curiosity, are you training under Patrick de Marchi? If so, he's very open-minded, so you shouldn't have too much trouble approaching him. I know that at least until our last meeting, they were holding Vom Tag high - glad to see they've adopted the 'an' shoulder version.


Yes, that would be Patrick and he will at times explain new interpretations or conclusions he has arrived at or read that seem to change the way we do things i.e. a continuing process of interpreting the original text and trying them out.

With Von tag he doesn't emphasize holding on the shoulder but has show it as an option, like I said: He may, after seeing this Topic thread that I have sent a link to in his e-mail, decide to address the issue and MAY change the way he teaches Von Tag. ( I can't speak for him obviously ).

Holding high would still be used over the head but maybe not off the shoulder on the side ? I'm curious to hear his opinion on this. And yes Patrick is very easy to talk to and not at all " autocratic/dogmatic " or ego driven about things in my opinion and he does listen to even us newer students when we express opinions, ask questions or give suggestions.

He is very strict about control and care to avoid contact and accidents: Contact does happen, but rarely, and one isn't in
" trouble " due to accidental contact as long as one doesn't show a pattern of being a " Klutz " or can't control one's adrenaline surge and emotions. ( Bullies obviously would be expelled ! Oh, and all the participants in my classes have been friendly and very respectful of each other and are all fun to " play " with.Cool ).

Patrick is a member here but only posts occasionally.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Jason G. Smith




Location: Quebec
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 130

PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 10:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I know Patrick, which is why I asked. As for contact - IMO he's completely paranoid about it, but not in a bad way. Happy He just takes his peoples' safety to heart. When we had an exchange in September, he came down to one of our member's homes and we did some freeplay. It was very instructional to deal with other systems and styles of fencing - we plan to do it again sometime, you should come!
Les Maîtres d'Armes
Member of the
Chivalric Fighting Arts Association

... above all, you should feel in your conscience that your quarrel is good and just. - Le Jeu de la Hache
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,310

PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 10:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jason G. Smith wrote:
I know Patrick, which is why I asked. As for contact - IMO he's completely paranoid about it, but not in a bad way. Happy He just takes his peoples' safety to heart. When we had an exchange in September, he came down to one of our member's homes and we did some freeplay. It was very instructional to deal with other systems and styles of fencing - we plan to do it again sometime, you should come!


Thanks for the invitation and maybe I can " bum " a ride with him if he goes to your place again. ( I assume he has a car but I don't. Wink If it's a " group " organized thing someone will have a way to get there ....... LOL ).

Being safe is important for all the obvious reasons but also because with a sprain in ankle, knee or wrist one has to skip classes and that isn't very productive.

Oh, with one year of training I have hit, lightly, maybe 2 or 3 times that were more than an extremely light touch and no one has had any sword related injuries. ( Almost sprained my ankle in a pothole crossing the street after the last class. Eek! Laughing Out Loud ).

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Benjamin H. Abbott




Location: New Mexico
Joined: 28 Feb 2004

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,248

PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 11:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That does sound about right, Christian. Head blows tend to have some immediate effect. For example, from 14th-century coroner's rolls, I remember an account of a man who took a serious cut to the head. One inch deep, three inches long, if I recall correctly. He fell to the ground, but then promptly got up, ran away, and survived thanks to medical care.

While you could expect some immediate effect from a light head cut, a stronger one would always be better. I suspect a sufficiently determined individual could still resist after certain light cuts. I can't think of a conclusive example off the top of my head, but I know this is true for piercing injuries to the brain. I remember reading about a cop who got stabbed between eyes and responded by quickly drawing his weapon and firing. Then he ran after the wounded attacker until both of them dropped from their injuries.
View user's profile Send private message
Christian Henry Tobler




Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 704

PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 11:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Benjamin,

Well, don't read too much into what I said earlier - stronger is better, within reason. I feel one should train to deliver strong blows, and that's the value of test cutting, when applied properly.

But, conversely, I think some folks go too far, overcommitting to blows in a way that makes for bad fencing.

I suspect I'm preaching to the choir here, though. Happy

All the best,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 870

PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 12:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Also on the shoulder the sword tip would tend to be already cocked towards the rear and would do two things: Give a larger arc with which to accelerate the sword and secondly remove the temptation to get this extra arc by cocking back the sword which also is very much telegraphing the move.

I could be wrong but when held close to the shoulder but not touching the shoulder there is more of a tendency to hold the sword vertically meaning less power from that position and the extra temptation to cock back ? ( move sword first should also be easier to do ? ).


I don't think the arc size difference between 'touching the shoulder' and 'besides the shoulder but not in contact' is really significant. More a question of the angle the sword is making; if you hold the guard on the shoulder, raise your hands a bit, a mere inch, and voilà, you're not touching the shoulder anymore, you have an even bigger arc...

I mean if you're after sheer power you should be over the head already, in my opinion Happy I've never seen anyone unable to strike harder from over-head than from the shoulder, but the shoulder version gives another motion that in some cases is desirable.

Cocking back is an issue anyway. Having the contact tends to make your hands more relaxed, so that you forget the weight of the blade. If you just punch forward from there the tip will go backward or remain motionless. You have to contract the hands first, launch the tip then punch. Which is exactly what is done even when there is no contact.

Not to even speak about all the other defects: raising first in order to cock back while keeping the contact, keeping the contact for too long, turning the body, etc... I've seen enough beginners in kenjutsu that I trust any guard can be malformed and misused (including by myself more often than not Happy )

Quote:
I will have to mention this to my trainer as we do tend to not start in contact with the shoulder, and that although touching the shoulder was mentioned as an " optional way ", this discussion leads me to believe that it is more mandatory or at very least much more optimum to start in contact on the shoulder: At the very least I will have to try to do it consistently this way.


I doubt it is more optimal, honestly. The contact point in itself is not usable for anything, you're not going to push your sword with your shoulder anyway. As long as the guard is taken at shoulder level, and the blade is up and not completely to the rear (which is the difference between the second guards in i.33), I think you can do exactly the same actions, with the same efficiency.

It is possible that the contact was generally adopted in the German schools, but I'd rather consider that a stylistic difference. After all not everything has to be anchored in reason Happy

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,310

PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 5:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
[
I doubt it is more optimal, honestly. The contact point in itself is not usable for anything, you're not going to push your sword with your shoulder anyway. As long as the guard is taken at shoulder level, and the blade is up and not completely to the rear (which is the difference between the second guards in i.33), I think you can do exactly the same actions, with the same efficiency.

It is possible that the contact was generally adopted in the German schools, but I'd rather consider that a stylistic difference. After all not everything has to be anchored in reason Happy


I think I should try it anyway just to see how it feels to me. Wink Cool

I think that Christian was saying that on the shoulder was the way it was written in the text and obviously this would be a good way to do the technique ! Is it the only way as in THE BEST way ? The dilemma is that we are first trying to recover/rediscover the way it was done in period because we can safely assume that they knew better how to fight for real than what we can simulate. We also don't have the benefit of having a living period instructor to correct our errors or point out misinterpretations of the texts.

Is it possible that someone today could come up with better or alternate techniques than period masters ? I would say anything is possible but it's much more probable that we would not be improving anything.

Also, the reality testing of real duels is impossible at the moment. Laughing Out Loud Now, maybe at some point we could create a virtual reality where the deadliest techniques could be used in complete safety to the real people playing even if deadly to their computer avatars. ( Holodeck à la Star Trek. Wink )

Anyway, I'm keeping to general principals as I am not qualified to make absolute statements about anything here: Just suggesting ideas.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 870

PostPosted: Fri 18 Apr, 2008 2:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
I think I should try it anyway just to see how it feels to me. Wink Cool


Oh I was not trying to discourage you from trying, and I'm not saying it's not as good a variant as the others... Just pointing out that I don't think we should necessarily seek a physical reason for every little thing written in the manuals. There may be several good ways...

In this particular contact/non-contact issue, the fact that non-contact exists in many other traditions is in my opinion indicative of an issue of style, not one of efficiency. Now, if you want to learn the exact style, you should absolutely practice the variants in the book, so contact it could be...

As a side note, I wonder what words would be chosen in German for these three situations:
-hand at chest level, blade touching the shoulder
-hand a bit further up (say neck), blade not touching
-hand at nose level, but the sword still over the shoulder

The first and last I think could be told appart even in the very terse wording quoted by Christian, the first two... I don't know. I wouldn't be shocked if someone called all three 'at the right shoulder'...

Have fun experimenting Happy

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Northern VA,USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 4,194

PostPosted: Fri 18 Apr, 2008 6:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
Just pointing out that I don't think we should necessarily seek a physical reason for every little thing written in the manuals. There may be several good ways...


This is very true, because even the treatises that we have from various masters each have their own subtle variations based on that particular master's preference. Paulus Kal has an illustration of the high version of Vom Tag which is a little different than how it is shown in Joachim Meyer's treatise, for instance. This is just like in Japanese schools, where one version of jodan no kamae (the closest guard to the high version of vom tag) is pointing upwards vertically, and another school will have it pointing backwards horizontally, while another school will have it at an angle. None of these is inherently better than another, but rather they fit within their own particular school.

HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand


"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Gary A. Chelette




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 29 May 2007
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 337

PostPosted: Fri 18 Apr, 2008 8:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:

With test cutting the priority becomes cutting efficiency& power while in combat a lesser cut that is sufficient to do the job but gets there first, in the safest way possible, becomes the priority.


I agree with this 100%. If a blow does not get there no matter how powerful, it doesn't matter. I have fought in this style for years and I have been very successful at it.

Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Cutting test, Atrim Legacy line XIIIa
Page 2 of 3 Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum