[Luka Borscak]

Are there findings of similar helmets less decorated?

[David Huggins]

Hi Guys,

just to add to the discussion of these grima helms, of which I own several quality reproductions, my own observations can attest to the imposing nature of the helms, often is the time I have heard remarks from members of the public when wearing one is how frightening they are periceved to be. It certainly scares the pants of small children

Also fully agree with Paul and Chris in as much as wearing the helmets in reneactment combat on many occasions I have found them to have been no hinderance.

As an heroic culture these fallen warriors also want to enter the afterlife in all of their martial splendour in as much as they appeared and used in life where appearance very much displayed the worth and status of the warrior.

Best
Dave

[/i]

[Ville Vinje]

We must stop using the gjermunby helmet as a reference. It is a product of the vikinga age, when we had totaly different conditions in scandinavia.

Some of you asks: what is the point of adding chainmail to a parade-only helmet?
First of all no one has said this was an parade helmet only. This helmet was part of a religious ceremony and put in a grave. What reseachers say is that this helmet had a symbolic and visual function rather than a strict combat function.
Secondly, why the chainmail? Well, why do we wear chainmail on our helmets. We are certainly not going to use them as protection from cuts in the neck. We want chainmail on our helmet because thats what the helmets looked like.The Valsgärde helmets were not meant to look like fancy hats, they were made to look like functional armour, they were made to give the warrior and impressive and imposing look.

The swords in the valsgärde/vendel /old uppsala/tuna area are not all very practical. Most of them would not be very efficient in battle. Some of the handles are so thin and fragile compared to the blades that they would not likely hold many blows. There is are research saying that the swords evolved from a practial and fully functional sword to a sword more suited as a status object rather than being used in combat. One thing that points in this derection is the simplified stylized "hanger ring" on the swords. A ring that clearly at some point was meant to be functional but later just became a part of the chape of the pommel.

I do not say that warrior did not use helmets of the valsgärde/vendel type (I myself have used google helmets in steel combat and found them to work great), all I say is that the helmets found in some of the graves, due to their impractical nature, probably was not used in combat.

[Chris Gilman]

C. Gadda,
I wouldn't put too much stock in much of what is in Brian Prices book. It is a nice well put together book, but I believe it has many wrong conclusions or incorrect facts about armour making. Padding thickness is just one example of many SCA conventions or untruths that becomes over time, interpreted as period or historic norms. In period a Helmet fit much closer to the head than just about any SCA helmet I have ever seen. I have a Maximillian close helm built by Robert McPherson that has a correct, period linen and Flax quilted suspension lining. (I have never found an original example of horsehair padding as Mr. Price claims.)
The helmet is very close to my head and I have fought in the SCA against great weapons and have been struck numerous times in the helm and have never been "stunned" or felt any greater impact than in my thicker padded helms. My Vendel helms are also very close to my head and fit very comfortably. I have built another style of helm with this same type of suspension lining for fighting with the Poles in Wolin. They use SCA force levels, but use rebated steel weapons! I was feeling a bit off while there, so I let a friend, who is a very accomplished fighter, wear the helm in battle. He was struck in the back of the head with a Dane axe hard enough to dent the 1mm hardened spring steel plate. It rocked his world, but it did not stun him. So I have no doubt that period fighting helms needed or had a great amount of padding as SCA requirement would suggest. (Jousting helms are a different matter.)
I believe the SCA’s use of thick padding and metal standards due to a general lack of construction skill. You can often correct bad engineering by over-building.

[Chris Gilman]

[Ville Vinje]

I have seen these helmets first hand many times.
I have never said chainmail was not good protection.
As a viking reenactor I am very familiar with steel weapon fighting and armour, I don't need to be told how combat works.
There are many swords from this period. Many of them has "hanger rings". Here is a nice reconstruction by Patric Barta:
http://www.templ.net/pics-weapons/103-german_.../a03av.jpg

[Chris Gilman]

Sorry, I must have missunderstood your statement .
"Secondly, why the chainmail? Well, why do we wear chainmail on our helmets. We are certainly not going to use them as protection from cuts in the neck. We want chainmail on our helmet because thats what the helmets looked like.The Valsgärde helmets were not meant to look like fancy hats, they were made to look like functional armour, they were made to give the warrior and impressive and imposing look."

[Paul Mortimer]

The Sutton Hoo helmet is not uncomfortable to wear, even for quite long periods.
The thickness of the metal on all these helmets is a lttle dificult to guage because of their time in the ground, especially with the Sutton Hoo which was also smashed into about 500 pieces by thecollapsing roof of the funerary chamber.

Ville, I have to disagree with you regarding the practicality of Vendel swords, too. I own the Patrick Barta replica of the Sutton Hoo sword -- I assure you that it is immensely functional as are other Vendel swords made by him and other swordsmiths like Paul Binns. As for ring swords, the rings were only ever functional in a symbolic sense, they were never meant to have straps attached.

There were helmets from this period which were less decorated -- remains of about 20 have been found on Gotland, some of which are published in Nerman's Vendelzeit in Gotland.

There will be a book published, probably in December or January about warfare in northern Europe during the 6th and 7th centuries, it will contain a great deal of information on all these helmets, plus swords, etc.

I have attached a picture of my helmet in use.

Cheers,

Paul

[Ville Vinje]

Well, we can't all agree about everything

You are a very lucky man to own such a fine sword, and the Sutton Hoo is just as beautiful.

Regarding the "ring hangers" I would dare to say that the opinion that the simplified ring is a product of an earlier type of sword is quite wide spread. Then again this is just speculation as most theories are.

[Grzegorz Kulig]

Hi Guys.
I have finally found some time to write here. However, the topic is really long and I am afraid I will not be able to answer every post - I would want also get some sleep today. So, I will concentrate on most important things.

Ville - I am agree with you with almost everything you wrote here. However, it seems there are only we both here who thinks those helmets were too impractical for saying they were made for fighting. I also think depictions on pressblech plates mostly show mythology scenes and have rather symbolic meaning.

Guys, let's stop talking about "processions" or "marching", as nor Ville nor me ever say such a funny thing. We are both just trying to say those helmets had rather a prestigious role than a battle role.

Chris:
You keep trying to prove the battle role of Vendel period helmets by saying your helmets, made of spring steel provides very good protection.
Do you really believe they use spring steel or any other steel in that time???
They were using IRON, most probably of bad quality.
I will be honest with you, now. Please, don't take offence. In my opinion helmets made by you and showed here aren't close enough to original items to call them "Valsagarde or Vendel helmets". I would rather cold them "helmets inspired by Vendel helmets" or "variations of Vendel helmets". If you have stayed with all details and proportions, those could be really fine replicas, as I see you are really skilled.
So, if your argument is that your helmets provide good visibility and protection, well ...for me this argument isn't good enough, because your helmets aren't originals and they are made of other materials. And we are not talking here about replicas, but about original pieces.

Many of you say : in reenactment battle, in SCA fighting etc etc....
You guys usually fight without head shots, right?. Do you really can imagine a real strike with sharp weapon (an axe, as most of weapon used in that time were axes, sword was an elitist weapon) at a bowl of a helmet with many gaps and made of material much poorer quality then nowadays steel? Please, don't compare SCA/reenactment fighting with blunt swords and spring steel helmets to real fight in Vendel or any other period. This isn't good argument.
Would you wear Ultuna helmet or Valsgarde 6 for fighting against archers?

[Bruce Tordoff]

Hi Grzegorz,
I must admit you do put forward a persuasive but informed argument for your case.

I am at Daves at the moment and have seen the pics of his new Valsgarde helm, may I say, you have excelled yourself again, beautiful work.

I, myself will be wearing this helm at Marle in June, but I suspect Dave will not be throwing his usual robust head shots, (and he's not even Polish!)

Best

Bruce

[Chris Gilman]

Perhaps you did not read my reply completely. Yes my helms are spring, but I was not sighting their material strength in comparison to the originals. I did say I have done test with mild steel and found it near impossible to breach a steel sheet without using the tip of a weapon. I also said, I would be interested to see results with Iron. Do we know the hardness or quality of the metal in these helms? I cannot recall seeing hardness figures for any of the helms of this period. Also, have any tests been done to indicate the quality of the iron? I have found in other periods, that decorative/ display pieces where typically made from very soft or lower quality iron. If the Iron of these helms was of high quality that may shed some light towards their intended use.
I did site an example of a blow to the head with a steel weapon hard enough to dent spring steel, as an argument for minimal padding, not steel strength. I fight all the time in a style that allows blows to the head, in fact I couldn’t find much joy in the “Reenactment” fighting in Moesgaard, because of its lack of realism and ridicules contact rules.
I do believe my helmets are close enough for comparison for fit and comfort, because I do not have an exact replica of the head the originals went on, so I don't know how one could judge fit of the originals. It is also my understanding many of these helms have been severely distorted from being buried.
I am also saying that these helms could be used regularly, not that they were. (Read the point of the colt revolvers.) I’m not sure if I agree with all of you arguments to this question, I will have to reserve judgment until I have more info.
Oh and I’m also a Pole, just born here. The last name should be Giermanski.

[Shamsi Modarai]

Just a quick question.....I thought that the rings on the ring-hilted swords had more to do with oath-swearing than with hanging the sword on something. Or was that a reference to the 'peace tying' theory? Am I mistaken to think the rings on the hilts of Migration Era swords may have had to do with oaths of some sort? I do remember reading this, though now I am not sure how scholarly the source was, as it was a long time ago. These are some of my favourite swords ever so I would hate to have a mistaken view of them (not to mention that I am writing my dissertation partly on oaths and don't want to include erroneous info!). Thanks.....

[Ken Speed]

Shamsi wrote,

"Just a quick question.....I thought that the rings on the ring-hilted swords had more to do with oath-swearing than with hanging the sword on something. Or was that a reference to the 'peace tying' theory? "


Yes, I'll swear I just recently read a note here at myArmoury which said that the rings were for "peace bonding" a sword.
I was rolling that idea around and it occurred to me that a simpler alternative answer is that it was a lanyard so that the warrior could either drop the sword and not lose it or not lose it if it were knocked out of his hand. I would think that the construction of the ring was demanding enough that it had to be there for a reason and not vestigial from some earlier form.

Ken

[C. Gadda]

[Anders Nilsson]

If the helmets found was not used in combat, then my question is, what type did they use?

[David Huggins]

Hi Mr Gadda,

With reference to your comments on helmet liner/padding, in Manhard Vogt's 'Spangenhelm' in the appendix is a photo image of what appears to be a helmet liner, from just the photo it is difficult to say if it is of a thin leather or if it is a textile.

The German language book covers the Late Roman/Early Medieval European spangenhelms contemporary to the helms now in discussion in some depth, but unfortunately as I don't read German I can not give any further information at this time

best
Dave

[Ville Vinje]

[C. Gadda]

[C. Gadda]