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Martin Wallgren




Location: Bjästa, Sweden
Joined: 01 Mar 2004

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PostPosted: Wed 16 Apr, 2008 11:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ken Speed wrote:
Do you think it makes sense that the Vendal period warriors would have such incredible helmets and swords and those sticks as leg protectors? Don't misunderstand I appreciate the information, I just don't think I have enough to visualize it correctly.


They´re made of Iron you know, not wood! Wink

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Chase S-R




Location: New Mexico
Joined: 31 Jan 2008

Posts: 166

PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 3:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I’m wearing a quilted leather coat underneath the mail. I fought at Moesgaard 2 years ago and it was very comfortable.


Did you make the leather coat, if you didnt can you tell me wear you bought it? Do you also have evidence for this type of gambeson? Some people here believe it would be uncomforatable and unhistorical to wear, I believe differently and would like any advice from one who has worn said item. Happy Laughing Out Loud Happy thanks in advance Happy Laughing Out Loud Happy oh if you made it do you know where I could buy one?

Charles Stewart Rodriguez
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Ken Speed





Joined: 09 Oct 2006

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PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 5:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Martin wrote, "They´re made of Iron you know, not wood! Wink"

Well gee Martin, why didn't you say so in the first place? Big Grin I guess it proves my point, in the photo they looked like they were wood.

Thanks


Ken
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David Huggins




Location: UK
Joined: 25 Jul 2007

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 6:30 am    Post subject: Vendel period clothing and armour         Reply with quote

Thats lovely work Chris,as you may know I'm a big fan of the Valsgarde/Vendel period myself. Nice pressblach on the splinted armour.

Ken, I have to agree the leg and forearm protection is more likely then body armour, again if you look t the Valsgarde painting on our myspace site you'll see a representation of the splinted armour recreated as a body armour!!

Highly unlikely though in my own opinion,unyeilding for a horse warior, and far to prone to piercing in between by a well placed spear thrust or arrow head, mind you I guesse it would be the same with maile.

I''m in the process of making a leather warrior coat like the 'bathrobe' type worn by the warriors depicted on the helm, but my interpretation this time will e to wear it over maile. No real evidence for this, just to seehow it handles in combat.

best

Dave

and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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Chris Gilman




Location: California
Joined: 07 Dec 2007

Posts: 76

PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 7:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks again for the kind words.
Chase,
I made mine. Calf skin (out) and deer skin (in) with a layer of cotton badding (I know I should have used something else, but time was short.) It worked very well. as it gets broken in, I'm sure it will get better. It is currently machine sewn, the plan is to hand sew over the seams eventually. At Moesgaard, I had my bear skin on my shoulders and I remember locals thinking I was going to be hot, but I was fine. I don't remember being hot from the mail and leather coat at all.

Chris
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Chase S-R




Location: New Mexico
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PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 9:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks allot! Big Grin Big Grin
Charles Stewart Rodriguez
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C. Gadda





Joined: 20 Aug 2007

Posts: 135

PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 9:48 am    Post subject: Re: Vendel period clothing and armour         Reply with quote

David Huggins wrote:
Thats lovely work Chris,as you may know I'm a big fan of the Valsgarde/Vendel period myself. Nice pressblach on the splinted armour.

Ken, I have to agree the leg and forearm protection is more likely then body armour, again if you look t the Valsgarde painting on our myspace site you'll see a representation of the splinted armour recreated as a body armour!!

Highly unlikely though in my own opinion,unyeilding for a horse warior, and far to prone to piercing in between by a well placed spear thrust or arrow head, mind you I guesse it would be the same with maile.

I''m in the process of making a leather warrior coat like the 'bathrobe' type worn by the warriors depicted on the helm, but my interpretation this time will e to wear it over maile. No real evidence for this, just to seehow it handles in combat.

best

Dave


The reconstruction of the splints being body armor was the original one put forth by Greta Arwidsson in Valsgarde 8. It was based on some graffiti of Persian warriors wearing a vaguely similar armor. However, Ortwin Gamber (sp?) in and article for the Journal of the Arms and Armour Society refuted this view (using, btw, some of the very points you allude to about inflexibility and the like) and reconstructed it properly as greaves protecting the lower legs and also a set that protects the sword arm (only - obviously the shield arm is protected by the shield, and requires no additional protection).

I have to admit that the very plain splints are a stark contrast both to the elaborate helms and swords found at Vendel/Valsgarde. For whatever reason they were not considered worthy of decoration - when I get my time machine back in operation I'll be sure and go back and ask the blacksmith "What were ya thinking, ya lazy putz?!"

I do like the pressblech decoration that Chris did, as well. Very well executed. I can only hope the Vendel helm I'm currently working on will look even half as good.
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David Huggins




Location: UK
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Posts: 490

PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2008 12:14 pm    Post subject: Vendel period clothing and armour         Reply with quote

Hi Mr Gadda,

Yeah I'm familiar with the original Arwidsson re-construction of the inhumation finds, I just thought the painting thats posted on our myspace site is dam fine and evocative, the artist obviously based his image on the original reconstruction. I think he has also captured some of the fine detailing I believe is present on the splint armour. The thought of pressblach and trim on these as Chris has done is quite aesthetically pleasing.

best

Dave

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Bruce Tordoff
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Joined: 13 Aug 2007

Posts: 120

PostPosted: Fri 18 Apr, 2008 6:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Guys, here is the picture my colleague Dave Huggins is referring to.(see 1st pic)
By the way Chris love the Vambraces and helms. Beautiful work, reminiscent of that by Thorkil the Armourer (Gregorz )
Cheers, Bruce Tordoff



 Attachment: 97.01 KB
Valsgardewarrior.jpg

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Anders Nilsson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Reading list: 4 books

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PostPosted: Fri 18 Apr, 2008 6:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bruce Tordoff wrote:
Hi Guys, here is the picture my colleague Dave Huggins is referring to.(see 1st pic)
By the way Chris love the Vambraces and helms. Beautiful work, reminiscent of that by Thorkil the Armourer (Gregorz )
Cheers, Bruce Tordoff


Torkil is by the way coming to our Vendelevent this summer. We are hosting a Vendelperiod market and reenactment on the theme Tre hövdinga ting. (Three cheiftain meeting)

We are using an actuall Vendelperiod site. It´s a rebuildt small village only a stonetrhow away from the arceological site.

Some pics of the site.

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd166/Lord_Nelle/Agne.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd166/Lord...opiera.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd166/Lord_Nelle/IMG_9472.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd166/Lord_Nelle/LARGE01.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd166/Lord_Nelle/Lnghu.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd166/Lord_Nelle/Nov2002.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd166/Lord...erberg.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd166/Lord...erberg.jpg
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David Huggins




Location: UK
Joined: 25 Jul 2007

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Fri 18 Apr, 2008 7:32 am    Post subject: Vendel period Armour and Clothing         Reply with quote

Hi Anders,

Give Greg and Gracjana my regards when they visits, just awaiting the Valsgarde 6 helm from him which should be complete by end of May. We have also been in discussion about a commission of one of the Valsgarde shields .

Best wishes for a success of your Vendel event/market.

best

Dave

.

and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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Bruce Tordoff
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PostPosted: Fri 18 Apr, 2008 1:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Anders, I had a look at the photo's, very beautiful place. We do an event here in the UK at a similar , although Anglo Saxon re-constructed village, only not as big buildings. Maybe one day we might visit this village in Sweden.
Please let either myself or Dave Huggins know if and when any pics of the Vendel event are posted on the net . That would be appreciated.
Cheers, Bruce. Vi hedra er furfaders!
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Martin Wallgren




Location: Bjästa, Sweden
Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 620

PostPosted: Fri 18 Apr, 2008 3:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bruce Tordoff wrote:
Hi Anders, I had a look at the photo's, very beautiful place. We do an event here in the UK at a similar , although Anglo Saxon re-constructed village, only not as big buildings. Maybe one day we might visit this village in Sweden.
Please let either myself or Dave Huggins know if and when any pics of the Vendel event are posted on the net . That would be appreciated.
Cheers, Bruce. Vi hedra er furfaders!


Vi hedrar era förfäder tillbaka! Happy

I´m also a member of the same group as Anders!

It would be great if you would like to come to Sweden some day. We would be very happy to accomadate you! We have a dream of getting a network going for us Migration/Darkage people around. And a few trips to eachother would be a realy good start for such a thing.

Jus send me a PM so we can exchange E-mails and stuff and start planing the future!

//Martin

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Anders Nilsson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 12 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sat 19 Apr, 2008 12:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bruce Tordoff wrote:
Hi Anders, I had a look at the photo's, very beautiful place. We do an event here in the UK at a similar , although Anglo Saxon re-constructed village, only not as big buildings. Maybe one day we might visit this village in Sweden.
Please let either myself or Dave Huggins know if and when any pics of the Vendel event are posted on the net . That would be appreciated.
Cheers, Bruce. Vi hedra er furfaders!


Hello

Nice that you like our site. We are planning on arranging a Vendel event every summer. This summer will be the first and we hope that it will grow with time.
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David Huggins




Location: UK
Joined: 25 Jul 2007

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Tue 22 Apr, 2008 12:03 pm    Post subject: Vendel Period armour and clothing         Reply with quote

Hi Anders,
I guess we've strayed from your original post a little. But hope the following helps a little.

For early anglo-saxon clothing and comparative continental/scandinavian clothing I would recommend 'Cloth and Clothing in Early Anglo-Saxon England' by Penelope Walton Rogers ISBN 978-1-902771-54-0 at £17.99.

Also check out for the finds from the chieftains grave at Hogrom, Sweden. He is believed to have worn a a short hip length ,close fitting tunic with inset sleeves and clasps on the side slits at the hips, combined with full length footless trousers with further clasps at the /ankle cuff.

For photographs of hand made reconstructions see Bender Jorgensen 's ' Krigerdragten i folkevandringstiden' in P.Roldfson & F.A Stylegar (eds) Snartemofunnene i Nyatt Lys
Oslo University 2004.

Further consider the so-called warrior coat, the bathrobe type knee length type worn by the warriors on the pressblach.

For my own Vendel period interpretation I'm just getting a new pair of Thorsberg trousers made in a heavy herringbone linen (the original are of a wool)len fabric) , ok they are dated 3rd Century, but many late roman iron age and viking age re-enactors use this find find as a basis for their interpratations.

For a tunic I'm using the Bernuthsfeld tunic, recently radiocarbon dated to the 7th Century, in a diamond twill. The tunic is
side split from the lower hem up to the hip and has a slit in each of the sleeve wrists cuffs and also has a side split at the neck opening.

Hope this helps a little with your question.
best regards

Dave

.

and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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Martin Wallgren




Location: Bjästa, Sweden
Joined: 01 Mar 2004

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Posts: 620

PostPosted: Tue 22 Apr, 2008 12:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Vendel Period armour and clothing         Reply with quote

David Huggins wrote:
Also check out for the finds from the chieftains grave at Hogrom, Sweden. He is believed to have worn a a short hip length ,close fitting tunic with inset sleeves and clasps on the side slits at the hips, combined with full length footless trousers with further clasps at the /ankle cuff.


Hi Dave!

Anders and I live just an hours drive from Sundsvall, the town where Högom was Happy!

The Chieftain would probally been our Jarl/Lord/King if we had been born 1500 years earlier!

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David Huggins




Location: UK
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PostPosted: Wed 23 Apr, 2008 12:18 am    Post subject: Vendel period arms,armour and clothing         Reply with quote

Hi Martin,
Cool! Perhaps a personna based on the chieftan's grave finds would be a good way to go for Anders? I'd like to see pictures of the clasps found in the grave. Guess we are 'off forum' now, perhaps this should be moved to Off Topic now moderator?

Not too sure about a halfdane who has served as an auxillary in the East Roman Empire living among the Svear, perhaps the Western Roman Empire at this time is more likely!

Best regards

Dave

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Kelly Powell




Location: lawrence, kansas
Joined: 27 Feb 2008

Posts: 123

PostPosted: Fri 25 Apr, 2008 5:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Contact Richard jones at Knotwolf armory(i believe it's knotwolfarmory.com ...I know there is a link from mandrake/windrose armory) He loves to make what sca people call "dress helms", meaning actual helmets without all our safety crap and historically correct metal thickness, along with some of the best sca helms around......He makes some beautiful woven helms and "clinker" style (looks like a upside down norse ship construction.....and I believe it is documented)....He is good friends with the "viking as you like it" guys who are based in germany and do a lot with the live steel crowds in europe.
Moderator....If i broke a rule by pimping my friends site, I do apologize.....I saw the photos of helmets and Richard is known for styles like that....Feel free to delete this post if it's breaking the rules....I try to a good little monkey and will not pitch a hissy fit Big Grin
Kelly Powell
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Grzegorz Kulig
Industry Professional



Location: Poland
Joined: 22 Mar 2007

Posts: 98

PostPosted: Fri 09 May, 2008 10:43 am    Post subject: Re: Vendel period clothing and armour         Reply with quote

Hi everyone.
I haven't been posting here for a long time, but I am really busy with interesting armourer's projects.

Here is the link to Historiska Museum in Sweden with some photos of Vendel stuff. (BTW, don't you think they were a bit crazy making so complicated pieces? Wink so magnificent work!).
http://mis.historiska.se/mis/sok/resultat_bil...6&page
I find this site very interesting and useful. Anders and Martin, you shouldn't have any problems with searching engine. Wink Unfortunately I don't speak Swedish at all, so I must do it with intuition.

Martin, thanks for posting here nice photos of pre-Viking helmets. Few shots were new for me.

Regarding to using those highly decorative helmets in fight.... Well, I have been writing here about this few times already. But I must say once again... Having made few of those helmets (and completing next two, now) with using pressblach authentic technique, I really think decoration on those helmet are too delicate for fighting with real, sharp weapon. So, I agree with archaeologists - I think those were parade, king's helmets. The only exception could be helmet from Ultuna, but we can never be certain...

Me and my wife Gracjana are thinking about starting reenacting Vendel period next year. However, I think this can be more difficult than reenacting Viking period, if one wants to do it most properly. I mean the cost of jewellery and finding a craftsman to do it. I am able to make many things (including some casted jewellery), but seeing, for example those stuff from Historiska Museum, I don't think I could do every piece at this time with this level of my skills... However good thing is we have some finds of complete clothing. Happy

And offtopic : Dave, me and my wife love diamond twill, too. Cool We have nice supplier of handwoven and natural dyed wool, here in Poland.

NEW ONLINE SHOP : www.thorkilshop.com

NEW ADDRESS of my web site: www.thorkil.pl

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Thorkil-Grzegor...7530780383
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Paul Mortimer




Location: England, Essex
Joined: 28 Aug 2003
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Posts: 285

PostPosted: Fri 09 May, 2008 11:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Thorkil,
I have to disagree with you on the helmets being just parade helmets for a number of reasons.
1. They give excellent protection to the head.
2. The wearer's vision is very good, much better than some later medieval helmets that we know were used for fighting.
3. The wearers were rich and could afford to have their helmets repaired or replaced. Damage to the pressbleches (plates) was not a problem. The Valsgarde 8 helm may well be an example of this as some of the plates are far from symetrical particularly with the odd interlace plates and they may be replacements. The Sutton Hoo helm also appears to have suffered damage and repair before being put into the grave.
4. Conspicuous displays of wealth were important to the warrior -- the richer he appeared to be - the more successful he must be - the tougher and more intimidating he would seem to be to his opponents.
5. The symbols on these helmets are mostly designed to be protective -- sometimes in practice with the crests (walu OE) as well as symbolically.

Of course they may have been used for ceremonial and ritual purposes as well - but it seems to me that their primary job was to protect their owner's head in battle.

However, none of this detracts from the fact that the helmets that you make are excellent reproductions and one day I hope to own at least one each of your helmets to go with my Sutton Hoo. Not only that you have helped to raise awareness of this period and m,ake these beautiful obkjects accessible to many more people.

If there were an award for this sort of thing -- I would heartly reccomend you, Thorkil, for it!!!!!

Fantastic work and well done.


Paul Mortimer
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