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Jeff A. Arbogast
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 Posted: Sat 01 Aug, 2009 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: Vendelperiod Clothing and armour |
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| Anders Nilsson wrote: | Hello
I´m trying to recreate a "Väring" from the Vendelperiod. He´s supposed to be a "halfdane" that has been to byzans as a mercenary. I have done a kit that I´m pleased with, but it feels a bit to "Viking".
I´m searching for what could make the kit more Vendelperiod.
I´m searching for information on Vendelperiod clothing, arms, and armour. (Ca 550-800)
I´m especially interested in cultures around the baltic. I´m also interested in the connection with the anglosaxons. The shield from Sutton Hoo is probably of scandinavian origin so there was trade. Could be a nice touch in the kit.
Not the best pics, but you get the point. It´s a quite basic shirt, tunic and trousers. Shoes of mooseskin to get a local touch. Saex, bearded axe, a spear and a sling as weapons.
I wanted the kit to be a "Väring" returning from service in byzans. It´s not to be a chieftain but rather a Huscarl.
I´m thinking of adding splints for arms and legs and perhaps a Danish axe.
Book, links and tips would be appreciated.
Any ideas would be appreciated. |
Perhaps you would care to check out this site-http://www.urweg.com/list/belts.html
They have many items that may interest you, including a few Vendel period belt mounts. I have dealt with them many times, and they are very friendly and helpful and are always willing to answer any questions you may have. I myself have their "Valsgaerde" belt but with solid silver fittings (in fact, they told me that they sold me the very belt shown on their belt page). It is an awesome, heavy, absolutely BEAUTIFUL belt. Fit for a king, and I'm not kidding. Their stuff isn't cheap, but you won't find better quality anywhere if you are willing to pay the price. Their stuff is SOLID, and you know it when you pick it up.
If you want a Danish axe, check out this site http://www.arms-n-armor.com/polearms.html
I have one, and it's a fearsome beast that I would not want to face, especially if it was being swung left-handed, as the Saxon Housecarls did. Duck or die. Period.
A man's nose is his castle-and his finger is a mighty sword that he may wield UNHINDERED!
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Tony Peterson
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| Posted: Sun 02 Aug, 2009 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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Shamless plug... but I'm selling a Vendel helm in the market section 
Cancel the kitchen scraps for lepers and orphans, no more merciful beheadings, and call off Christmas!
The time of heroes is dead: the christ god has killed it, leaving nothing but weeping martyrs and fear and shame.
If we die... it will be for GLORY, not gold.
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David Huggins
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| Posted: Tue 23 Feb, 2010 5:39 am Post subject: New valsgarde 5 helm |
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Hi guys,
Here is my new Valsgarde 5 helm that I thought would be of interest. a commissioned piece by the ever talented Thorkil.
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and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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Artis Aboltins
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| Posted: Tue 23 Feb, 2010 6:18 am Post subject: |
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Congratulations! Fantastc work by Thorkell as always. Are you planning to use the helm in reenactment combat too? 
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 23 Feb, 2010 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Artis Aboltins wrote: | | Congratulations! Fantastc work by Thorkell as always. Are you planning to use the helm in reenactment combat too? |
Combat ! I would worry about damaging it a cheaper production version like one made by GDFB might be an idea, here is what it looks like on the KoA site:
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...rde+Helmet
Not in the same class at all. but not bad looking for the price.
Thorkil's work is amazing as always, congratulations on owning such a great piece of high art.  
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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David Huggins
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| Posted: Wed 24 Feb, 2010 12:34 pm Post subject: Vendel period |
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Thanks guys, I had long wanted to see the Valsgarde 5 helm recreated and knew that Greg's skills matched the high expections that I had off him, I must say when I recieved it, I was bowled over my Greg's attention to detail on this one and of all the period helms that I have this is a firm favourite. The wala or crest is tubular over a wooden sub-frame and a seperate ridge as is the orignal.....so no I will definetly not be using the beauty in re-enactment combat!!!!!!
cheers
Dave
and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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Andreas Becht
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| Posted: Fri 26 Feb, 2010 9:34 am Post subject: |
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If really can't recommend the GDFB Valsgarde 5 helm. I bought it last year and resold it immediately. It does look o.k. in the pictures, but believe me, it's different when you hold it in your hands or try to wear it! I couln't even wear the one I had properly because it was all lopsided und VERY uncomfortable to wear. It looked pretty cheap too.
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Eric Brackett
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| Posted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 3:52 pm Post subject: Vendelperiod Clothing and armour |
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It has been awhile since I last replied to anything here but I did want to add just one thing to this post. Over the last year two of my fellow students and myself have been forging early period helms using all period materials including bog iron for our base metal, in attempts to form working knowledge for my thesis. Not only have we used all period materials but we have reproduced the helms to the best of our abilities to be an almost exact match ( this in great part with the help of a very talented blacksmith here in the pacific northwest). I am very happy to report that I can say that after forging said helms we went about destroying them in test to see exactly how well they can withstand a blow. We used seven types of weapons to exact the damage upon the helms : Sword, Great Axe, Thrusting spear, Hand Axe, Arrow and Seax. The results were very surprising.
We produced multiples ( 3 of each style for of each test ie 3 for sword 3 for seax 3 for Arrow etc ) style helm The Helms were as follows : Valsgarde Type 5, 6, Sutton Hoo, Coppergate Helm and Gjermundbu Helm Type 5, 6, Sutton Hoo, Coppergate Helm and Gjermundbu Helm
Test 1 : Sword, Seax and Arrow
All helmets were capable of taking multiple blows from the sword, seax and arrow. We attributed this to the curvature of the helms. In 90 % of all test the blades would glance off the helms when struck from the side leaving only damage to the bronze plates of the helm. When struck from over head something interesting happened in 72% of the tests of the helms that had a bronze crest. The strike would be slowed by the bronze crest and leave the iron ridge below fully intact. One twice during the test did an arrow pierce the helm. This was done at a 30 yard range using a draw of 50 lbs.
Test 2: Great Axe, Hand Axe
As was expected the Helmets did now fair well against the Great Axe, how ever we were excited to see that as with the sword seax and arrow text the over head strikes were slowed when the edge of the Axe blade came into contact with the bronze crest. However, the end result was that it did not slow the strike enough to keep the blade from puncturing the helm. However in only 62% of the test was the blade able to pierce the leather lining underneath the helm. The Hand Axe hard far less success. In only 34% of the tests was the Hand Axe able to pierce through the Helm past the crest to the leather lining. It is with fair assessment that we came to the obvious conclusion that this would be due to the momentum created with the Great Axe versus the Hand Axe. However not all was good news for the helms when it came to the Axe test. When struck from the side almost all helms struck with the Axe bent to suck a degree that not only would the helm be deemed useless for future combat but the crease would create such a head wound that we actually had to refer to a surgeon ( my uncle) for his opinion as to whether or not he thought that such a wound would be survivable. In his professional opinion he though that given the depth of the wound and the velocity of the blow would cause the patient to be rendered unconscious and more than likely bleed to death with out immediate medical attention, and even with immediate ( and modern) medical attention said patient would suffer brain damage. The Hand Axe faired very well against the helm when striking from the side how ever the depth of the blow rarely broke through the leather lining. We have come to the conclusion that it would be possible to survive a blow of this nature.
Test 3 : Thrusting spear
This is the weapon that faired the worst against all types of helms. In all tests only the Sutton Hoo helm failed to protect the head. The Helm was pierced by a forward thrust which struck the helm directly between nasal protection and the right brow. Once the spear had pierced the helm we were able to in the same thrust shove the spear completely through to the back of the helm this meant it completely pierced the leather lining and the melon that was holding the helm up. Needless to say we don't think the victim would have survived. When using the spear in a striking manner, the blade would either glance off the helm or bend upon contact with the helms
In our opinion based on all research and test we have come to the conclusion that the helms were more than battle worthy. However we are still debating as to whether or not the helms found in burials were specifically meant for burial usage or used by the own while alive. I do believe that given that if a people have a believe that the items laid in your grave will be used in the after life then it leads me to believe that these items were actually used in the owners life time as well. If a fighter had used a helm and it had been worthy then why would he not want that helm in the after life with him to save his scalp there. However then again we do have stories of warriors going to graves and stealing weapons (primarily swords) from the ancestors because the sword has great renown, it is plausible then that if a piece of armor had great renown that it to could be valued enough to either be passed on or grave stolen. this of course is all conjecture. Regardless our test at least prove that the helms could have been used to great effect in battle.
Now to stress the fact that this test was not carried out by mere academics, I would like to point out that the Man who made the Helms is a blacksmith by trade and living how solely reproducing arms and armor for sale as well as reproduction for Museum collections and has even done a fair bit of film work. One of the students who helped with this project is truly a master craftsman, before returning to school he works as a jewelry maker and designer and with out him I must say we would have been a bit lost when working with the bronze. The other student like myself has been involved in Dark Ages reenactments for several years ( myself over ten years) and again like myself is a student of the martial arts (we met in Ken do Class) I myself military training having served eight years in the United State Marine corps in a combative role, I also have over 25 years in the Japanese martial arts ( Kendo and Akido) as well as five years in Western Martial arts, I have also over 28 years in reenactment societies and am currently in the process of working on my p.h.d. in Archeology. We also did not rush into this project over night, in total the project had been in the works for a little over two and a half years. If anyone has any questions regarding the research we conducted prior to the test I am more than happy to pass it along, I however can not give any further information included in my Thesis until after it is completed and accepted.
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Martin Wallgren
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| Posted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Awesome! 
I´m stunned!
Swordsman, Archer and Dad
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Colt Reeves
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| Posted: Fri 19 Mar, 2010 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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You mention a melon holding the helm up. Could you tell us more about how the helms were held and supported? That's often a big failing of many tests, in which people oversupport the test object and thus can deliver far more force to it than would be probable in actual battle conditions. For your situation however, I'm envisioning a melon just laying on a table and you whacking away at it, which is a step in the other direction.
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Anders Nilsson
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| Posted: Sat 20 Mar, 2010 12:25 am Post subject: |
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Is there any photos from the test?
Anders "Nelle" Nilsson, Instructor Angermanna Mnhfs
To train martial arts without fighting is like slalom without snow.
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Bruce Tordoff
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 20 Mar, 2010 9:38 am Post subject: Vendelperiod Clothing and armour |
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Eric,
good post, but, (and I'm sure I'm speaking for everyone else here!) will we get to see some pictures of said tests, and indeed the helms before they were bashed?
Can I just say thanks also, for undertaking this project, I'm not sure if any one of the other Vendel/Valsgarde/Sutton Hoo replica owners would ever dream of whacking the cr&p out their museum replica's, so thanks for making this 'noble' sacrifice for our mutual benefit.
As owners of replica's of some of these helms themselves, I'm sure my friends Dave Huggins and Paul Mortimer, will have something to say on your findings so far.
Will be good to see the finished thesis, if you are making it available, when the time comes.
Cheers,
Bruce
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Eric Brackett
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| Posted: Sat 27 Mar, 2010 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| Colt Reeves wrote: | | You mention a melon holding the helm up. Could you tell us more about how the helms were held and supported? That's often a big failing of many tests, in which people oversupport the test object and thus can deliver far more force to it than would be probable in actual battle conditions. For your situation however, I'm envisioning a melon just laying on a table and you whacking away at it, which is a step in the other direction. |
As for how the melons were fashioned, We affixed the melon on a spike that was affixed then to a plate the plate rested on a series of coil springs to represent body movement when being struck. I must say that this was not my idea and had my doubts when it was purposed however after having seen it in action I must say it was extremely horrific how life like it was. The whole reason this was purposed is basically because in a battle situation they receiver of the blow would not have just stood there and taken the hit ridged, his head would have moved with the energy of the blow, this allowed us to get in our opinion a more accurate view of how the strike truly affected the Helm.
And yes for the record we I will be uploading photos as soon as I can, I am having a bit of an issue with my scanner ( yes I am one of the rare few people in the world who refuse to use digital cameras). It may take a bit since my term will be ending in a month and a half so its crunch time for me here.
As far as me sacrificing the helms, well I will let you on a little secret, I used student loan money for most of the materials (shhh don't tell the government) and after all if this pays off i should be able to pay the loans back easier .
I do have a bit of further news to report. After the fun ( yes Science can be fun) we had we have decided we want to try a few more bits of Migration through early middle ages armor. And to top it all off we were just donated 500 lb s of ballistic gel to help simulate the human body, we are considering looking at the effectiveness of Lamellar armor made of Horn and leather backed, also Birka style Lamellar, 4 in one maile 2 types butted and riveted, quilted armor and a Wisby coat of plates. As of this moment we are in the early discussion stages of all of this and preparation time will be very long but we hope to begin in the very least by this summer on the production of the armor. If we do this, the test will be very similar if not the same as the last test, with all materials being only what would have been available during the time. So I will keep you all posted as it works out.
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David Huggins
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| Posted: Sun 04 Apr, 2010 11:59 pm Post subject: Vendel period armour and clothing |
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An informative post Eric and thanks for sharing your own and fellow students findings. I applaud your use of bog iron for this experimental research, and hopefully the conclusions of your research will help to persuade those who believe the Vendel/Valsgarde/Sutton Hoo helms are ceremonial and not intended for functional use otherwise.
Taking into account your findings, and the reasonable belief that the shield is the warriors primary method of defence I see no reason that these helms can be considered just ceremonial or funary items.
As they 'Great Axe' does not appear in the archeological record at the time of the inhumations I think we can further conclude that the helms would have been fit for purpose.
Look forward to your further posts.
regards
Dave
and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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Andrew Rees
Location: Washington State Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Sun 18 Apr, 2010 8:01 am Post subject: |
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I have been impressed by the quality of the discussion on this thread. I hope there are some here who could point me in the right direction.
I am going to make a reconstruction of the splint vambrace and greaves from Valsgarde 8. I am looking for accurate dimension information for the splints that were found as well as how they relate to the estimated size of the individual buried there. So far, I have requested the following through ILL:
Greta Arwidsson's "Valsgarde 8"
Ein neuer Rekonstrucktionsvorschalg zum Panzerfunde von Valsgarde by Paul Post
Acta Archaeologica, Vol 10, Armor of the Vendel Period
I am not conversant in German but I do know how to use some of the on line translation sites.
Are these sources likely to give me the information I am looking for? Are there any sources in English that would have the information? Does anyone have the information in a handy digital format?
Andrew
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Thu 24 Jun, 2010 5:57 am Post subject: |
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Paul Mortimer wrote: "There will be a book published, probably in December or January about warfare in northern Europe during the 6th and 7th centuries, it will contain a great deal of information on all these helmets, plus swords, etc."
Is that book out? I would love to get it...
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Chuck Russell
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| Posted: Thu 24 Jun, 2010 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| Luka Borscak wrote: | Paul Mortimer wrote: "There will be a book published, probably in December or January about warfare in northern Europe during the 6th and 7th centuries, it will contain a great deal of information on all these helmets, plus swords, etc."
Is that book out? I would love to get it... |
yes yes i would love a copy as well!
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Johan Gemvik
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| Posted: Tue 29 Jun, 2010 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: Vendelperiod Clothing and armour |
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| Eric Brackett wrote: | I am very happy to report that I can say that after forging said helms we went about destroying them in test to see exactly how well they can withstand a blow. We used seven types of weapons to exact the damage upon the helms : Sword, Great Axe, Thrusting spear, Hand Axe, Arrow and Seax. The results were very surprising.
We produced multiples ( 3 of each style for of each test ie 3 for sword 3 for seax 3 for Arrow etc ) style helm The Helms were as follows : Valsgarde Type 5, 6, Sutton Hoo, Coppergate Helm and Gjermundbu Helm Type 5, 6, Sutton Hoo, Coppergate Helm and Gjermundbu Helm |
Thank you so much for this post!
I've been trying to get hold of iron to make helmets for the same type of tests and so far no luck. Well, I found places but nothing my current economy allows for. But now thanks to you I don't have to.
The spring setup you used is ingenious, I was thinkling the same there too. Possibly one should do the same test again sometime but use a plastic skull and ballistics gel as a skull and flesh will be harder to penetrate than a melon, but that's the only thing I can think of to add.
Very interersting how the results with the axes differ from the axe blows shown in various other tests and "reality" shows. I've always said that modern steel would result in an excessively resilient helm compared to historical iron and so it seems indeed.
I have a few questions about the weapons used in the tests.
Were the swords blunt, semi sharp or very sharp and what part of the swords were you striking with, say tip, outer or inner COP and with what types of techniques? You're listing japanese martial art training, so I'm guessing one- and/or twohanded yokomein and shomein strikes? How powerful were the blows? Were they cutting or percussive?
And the same for the axes of course, but basically any decent axe blow would be poweful and percussive in nature.
"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Paul Mortimer
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| Posted: Wed 30 Jun, 2010 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Lukas and Chuck,
Sorry for the late reply to your question about my book. It isn't out yet - there have been several delays, but it is now at the publisher's and we are sorting some difficulties with the illustrations. I will keep you informed.
Paul
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David Huggins
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| Posted: Sun 11 Jul, 2010 1:27 pm Post subject: Vendel period |
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Hi Guys
Please find herea selection of images we atended from a recent event at Marle showing a selection of warriors from Barbaricum.
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fus...Id=1552763
Hope you enjoy.
regards
Dave
and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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