Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search


myArmoury.com is now completely member-supported. Please contribute to our efforts with a donation. Your donations will go towards updating our site, modernizing it, and keeping it viable long-term.
Last 10 Donors: Daniel Sullivan, Anonymous, Chad Arnow, Jonathan Dean, M. Oroszlany, Sam Arwas, Barry C. Hutchins, Dan Kary, Oskar Gessler, Dave Tonge (View All Donors)

Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Proposed ban of ALL swords by October 2008 Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next 
Author Message
D Critchley




Location: UK
Joined: 24 Jan 2007

Posts: 85

PostPosted: Sun 30 Mar, 2008 12:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

[quote="Hisham Gaballa"]
D Critchley wrote:


How is it decided if a weapon is an antique though? With a plain battered old tulwar picked up at a miltaria fair or on ebay, you've only got the sellers word for it that it is 19th century. For all you know it could be anything from 50 to 250 years old.


Good question, basically it comes down to expert witness I imagine. So if you are charged with having a banned weapon your absolute defence is that it is antique. (and as long as you weren't caught threatening old ladies at bus stops) that should suffice. To prove it is antique to the satisfaction of a court you will need to have it assessed by an auctioneer or military weapons curator of a museum I guess, or have the receipt from a reputable antiques dealer.

Presumably if you have your collection individually insured and have had it assessed, this will be accepted as proof, given the insurance company has found it satisfactory in the first place. - We need some test cases - but I'm not volunteering.

No one knows how it will really turn out yet

David C

"The purpose of the cavalry on the battlefield is to give tone to an event that otherwise might be considered a common brawl"
View user's profile Send private message
F. Carl Holz




Location: someplace out on the water (and probably not able to access my PM)
Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 115

PostPosted: Sun 30 Mar, 2008 2:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't know if this is a practical suggestion or not, but have they considered making a "white list" instead of a "black list"?
That is instead of creating a list of sword you can't have make a list of swords you can, and for what reasons. Or as an alternative to what swords are acceptable, perhaps what makers are acceptable, or type maker. I'm sure making a list of reputable dealers and makers would be a much shorter list than one of "these swords are bad."

Also is there any chance of creating an organization which, while it does not control a group or individuals training, activities etc., could be used of a sort of registry of practitioners and collectors, what they do, where they are located, and then used to legitimize (as it were) these people owning swords? Obviously there would have to be some sort of criteria for membership, but if run by martially informed individuals, this would not have to be a problem. Insurance could be taken care of by a sort of membership fee or some-such. This would be a tremendous project to try and undertake of course, and I'm not volunteering, but if it could be done it might be worth it.

Just a couple of thoughts that occurred to me the other night. Hope they were helpful.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Paul Watson




Location: Upper Hutt, New Zealand
Joined: 08 Feb 2006

Posts: 395

PostPosted: Sun 30 Mar, 2008 6:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anyone who says there is no reason for anyone to own a sword now days (here I am paraphrasing an example of a politican given in a previous thread) can easily have that argument turned against them. For example there is no reason to have a car that can go twice or three times the maximimum speed limit but there are many cars that can do so.

There is no reason for a lot of past times or hobbies apart from they enjoyment they bring, but the fact is if people want to enjoy them, participate in them then it should be their right to do so as long as it is not to the detriment of any one else or the well being of society in general.

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, but that which it protects. (Faramir, The Two Towers)
View user's profile Send private message
Stephen Hand




Location: Hobart, Australia
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Sun 30 Mar, 2008 10:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,

I'm not interested in debating how to combat such legislation, as such debate has proved fruitless. Suffice it to say that I have successfully combated very similar legislation in Australia which, as the UK, has a Westminster system of government. I am happy to share how I did this with anyone facing similar legislation.

Cheers
Stephen

Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield

Stoccata School of Defence
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Mon 31 Mar, 2008 12:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Watson wrote:
as long as it is not to the detriment of any one else or the well being of society in general.


and there you have it Idea

The UK legiskation already allows for exceptions and the door to negotiate more is open, with an open offer by Stephen Hand for an approach.

peter
View user's profile
Ed Toton




Location: Northern VA
Joined: 16 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 462

PostPosted: Mon 31 Mar, 2008 1:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Watson wrote:
Anyone who says there is no reason for anyone to own a sword now days (here I am paraphrasing an example of a politican given in a previous thread) can easily have that argument turned against them. For example there is no reason to have a car that can go twice or three times the maximimum speed limit but there are many cars that can do so.


It does get turned against people, all the time, often without them realizing it. Of course the main reason our community is getting riled up about this is because this pertains to swords specifically, and therefore has a direct negative effect on this community. However, any such restrictions on freedoms eventually have an impact on everyone, since it adds to the general atmosphere of acceptance of erosion of freedoms. IMHO, this is why any such legislation should be fought tooth and nail.

As others have pointed out, criminalizing the tool doesn't solve anything. One needs to punish the perpetrators, not the countless others who safely and responsibly own swords, knives, or whatever. Better yet, if you want to reduce crime, you need to address the socio-economic causes of it in the first place, which is hard to accomplish, and is less glamorous. No one wants to tackle the hard problems. Instead a knee-jerk piece of legislation that carries a good sound bite is much easier and generally helps the careers of the politicians involved, since they can point at this as an "accomplishment", even if the result is that it caused more harm than good.

My heart goes out to our friends over on the other side of the pond. I understand the ordeal.

-Ed T. Toton III
ed.toton.org | ModernChivalry.org
My armor photos on facebook
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
George Davidson




Location: Glasgow Scotland
Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Posts: 47

PostPosted: Fri 04 Apr, 2008 8:21 am    Post subject: Home office email regarding UK Sword Ban         Reply with quote

A member of the Dawn Duellist Society got the below email in reply to his question of how the sword ban will work in practice. Makes for interesting reading...

email from the Home Office

In practice, the public liability insurance will be held by the re-enactment society with the aim of the defence being that the insurance covers any liabilities that the society has to participants if they are injured during a re-enactment. The insurance does not have to cover situations where one participant is injured by another for which the society has no liability. The definition of 'third parties' is the same as that used in the context of realistic imitation firearms in the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 therefore we are following this precedent of what is a working defence.

We envisage that a shop keeper would need to satisy themselves that any person wishing to buy a sword with a curved blade of over 50 centimetres in length after 6 April 2008 meets the criteria of one of the defences in the Order covering collectors, martial artists and historical re-enactors. For martial artists and re-enactors, this could be a membership card of a genuine club or organisation plus/or a copy of that club or organisation's public liability insurance. The onus would be on the shopkeeper as it would be them committing the offence if sell to wrong person and not the buyer.

Regards

Jonathan Batt
Public Order and Offensives Weapons section Public Order Unit
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mike Lee




Location: South West
Joined: 06 Mar 2008

Posts: 26

PostPosted: Fri 04 Apr, 2008 12:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Poor old Mr Blatt, he has been having a hard time of it recently.

It's all very well putting the onus on the shopkeeper to satisfy him or herself that a buyer is legitimate under the exemptions noted but 5 minutes with a PC and laminator will provide me with a convincing membership card for whatever society I choose - and should a buyer use a fake card will the shop keeper will still be liable or will they have to prove the deception?

I refuse to have a battle of wits with someone who is unarmed.
View user's profile Send private message
Lee O'Hagan




Location: Northamptonshire,England
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Likes: 6 pages

Posts: 529

PostPosted: Fri 04 Apr, 2008 12:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

for myself i read this as positive news,
if the shopkeepers were not selling the cheap tat criminals could use and throw away there would be less sword and knife crime in the news and the weapons of choice would be other things cheap and easy to replace,
to me this reads as if curved blades over 50cm are a viable option for the people not wishing to commit heinous crimes,
very much in line with the authorities having a database of who has what and where,
a side benefit to this would be if items are stolen,you would have a far greater chance of recovery,
a licence or register card is a small effort compared to having no option at all,
maybe i'm being overly optimistic,But we cant give up,EH,

George,Cheers, Cool
View user's profile Send private message
George Davidson




Location: Glasgow Scotland
Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Posts: 47

PostPosted: Fri 04 Apr, 2008 1:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Funnily myself and one of the guys in my club were talking last night about the insurance thing. What if a bunch of neds/chavs got together, formed a wallhanger appreciation club and took out public liability insurance. they could then buy all the stainless steel katanas they could eat legally! Enough members and the insurance would cost pennies! Eek!

jokes aside ... it doesn't look too bad as the below stands. And I do feel for Jonathan Batt as we must be quite a group to deal with ... intelligent, belligerent and heavily armed! Wink

the ID cards I do have my mobi on the back for ease of checking. If one of my guys get stopped (assuming they werent in someones living room robbing it) I will happily confirm they are a member of my group.

If I hear any more info before sunday, will pass it on.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Lee O'Hagan




Location: Northamptonshire,England
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Likes: 6 pages

Posts: 529

PostPosted: Fri 04 Apr, 2008 1:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cheers George any and all is welcome, Cool
i know of one smith out your way that this news will lighten his mood some large amount,
as for the wallhanger guys,there welcome to there's,plenty of good people prefer that road,but,
as always in our fair isle's it's the minority of pond life that ruin alot for the law abiding civilians,
View user's profile Send private message
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Fri 04 Apr, 2008 2:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The "sword ban" topics have been merged into this single topic.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Mike Lee




Location: South West
Joined: 06 Mar 2008

Posts: 26

PostPosted: Fri 04 Apr, 2008 4:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lee O'Hagan wrote:
for myself i read this as positive news,
if the shopkeepers were not selling the cheap tat criminals could use and throw away there would be less sword and knife crime in the news and the weapons of choice would be other things cheap and easy to replace


Are you sure about this?

You say that if cheap swords were not available the criminals would use another readilly available item - but you still support the ban, having just admitted it would not prevent a single crime?

We need to remember that the cheap swords are not just wall hangers - they are 'entry level' swords upon which true enthusiasts grow and discover the wider world of higer end swords - think of your first ever lock knife, was it a 300 CRK Sebenza or a cheap chinese Buck 110 copy?

We need to be very careful about differentiating between a 25 Katana and a 10,000 Nihonto - we cannot afford snobbery and segregation between ourselves - if divided we stand.............................

I refuse to have a battle of wits with someone who is unarmed.
View user's profile Send private message
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Sat 05 Apr, 2008 11:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A reminder: To those of you who have suddenly found yourself unable to post on the forum, I refer you to the administrative notices at the start of this topic. You are welcome to message me directly asking how long they will be revoked, but the notes at the start of this topic serve as the only explanation as to "why".
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Lee O'Hagan




Location: Northamptonshire,England
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Likes: 6 pages

Posts: 529

PostPosted: Sat 05 Apr, 2008 1:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mike Lee wrote:
Lee O'Hagan wrote:
for myself i read this as positive news,
if the shopkeepers were not selling the cheap tat criminals could use and throw away there would be less sword and knife crime in the news and the weapons of choice would be other things cheap and easy to replace


Are you sure about this?

You say that if cheap swords were not available the criminals would use another readilly available item - but you still support the ban, having just admitted it would not prevent a single crime?

We need to remember that the cheap swords are not just wall hangers - they are 'entry level' swords upon which true enthusiasts grow and discover the wider world of higer end swords - think of your first ever lock knife, was it a 300 CRK Sebenza or a cheap chinese Buck 110 copy?

We need to be very careful about differentiating between a 25 Katana and a 10,000 Nihonto - we cannot afford snobbery and segregation between ourselves - if divided we stand.............................


Hi Mike,
I read it as positive news,as the curved blades over 50cm were not dismissed out of hand,i was expecting a reply of,no it's over 50cm we will not budge,
shopkeepers have the right of refusal for sales as do makers,
they have a duty to try and be responsible in who they sell to as opposed to just thinking about the money,a lost sale could be helpfull in the longrun if they suspect the buyer has bad intention's,
as for supporting the ban,i am among those who voted no,the 85% in the paperwork,
as for sword snobbery,that isnt the case,
it's the difference between good and bad people being able to purchase a weapon,for less than a large pizza,
it's who's buying,not what they are buying,
for us in the UK,the ban is here and it's a reality we now have to deal with,
the people advising slow steady and sensible,already know it's the only way we will get any joy from the situation,personnal feelings have to be put to one side (hard as that is) while dealing with those who set current legistlation.
apologies if i dont seem very clear,but we are used to reading between the lines in the UK as it's how you learn to survive in society,
also Nathan has been good enough to let these threads run,and i dont wish to push his generousity
View user's profile Send private message
Doug Lester




Location: Decatur, IL
Joined: 12 Dec 2007

Posts: 167

PostPosted: Sat 05 Apr, 2008 4:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lee, don't assume that having less knife and sword violence would really change anything. I don't have the comparative data, but I would not be surprised if the UK has much less violence per capita than the US. In some of our major cities on this side of the pond a shooting or a stabbing doesn't even get in the papers unless someone dies. Violence in the schools or businesses, such as the Post Office ( going postal ) is much more likely to get into the news because it is unusual. There are a lot of people in this country who think that violence in schools or the work place is a big problem. Actually it's not. Children are safer, statistically, in school than in their own homes. The US Postal Service is one of the safest companies in the US to work for and most other work places are pretty safe from violence too. The sensationalism around the incidents that have happen have given the perseption that they are dangerous.

As a side, I think that it's ironic that one of our countries master bladesmiths just completed a seminar on forging swords at a knifeshop outside London just a few weeks ago.
View user's profile Send private message
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,121

PostPosted: Sat 05 Apr, 2008 11:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wonder how this will influence online and by mail purchasing of swords in the UK? Anyone know.

They seem to be interested in making stores accountable for sales. If this is really the case then that seems more logical.

RPM
View user's profile Send private message
Mike Lee




Location: South West
Joined: 06 Mar 2008

Posts: 26

PostPosted: Sun 06 Apr, 2008 1:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Doug Lester wrote:
Lee, don't assume that having less knife and sword violence would really change anything.


Very true. Criminals, by their very nature have little regard for the law - new or old. It is logical to believe that is someone is intent on arming themselves then they will do so with whatever is avaiable to them - be it a sword, machete, baseball bat, hammer, screwdriver or any other number of easilly accessable items.

It also needs to be understood that the number of blade related attacks is significantly less than attacks involving 'hitting implements' but as of yet we have had no restrictions on golf clubsor baseball bats.


Randall Moffett wrote:
I wonder how this will influence online and by mail purchasing of swords in the UK? Anyone know.


UK retilers will need to satisfy themselves that a buyer is legitimate. It is suggested this be done through the production of a membership card of a club or society holding the correct level of public liability insurance. Whether the production of membership details is to be sufficient or whether the retailer will need to call the club / get a copy of the insurance cert. is as yet unknown. As we all know, 5 minutes in front of a PC and a laminating machine can see you quickly become a member of whatever club you wish so the retailer is in a worrying position.

As for online sales, any items purchased abroad will be siezed by Customs upon entry to the UK unless accompanied by satisfactory paperwork.

And the best bit - the Home Office will not offer guidance to businesses or individuals regarding what paperwork is needed or how retailers should best check the legitimacy of a buyer - the official advice is to get professional legal advice so it looks like we will have to have a few test cases before the grey areas are cleared up.

I refuse to have a battle of wits with someone who is unarmed.
View user's profile Send private message
Bob Burns




Location: South Indianapolis IN
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 112 books

Posts: 1,019

PostPosted: Tue 15 Apr, 2008 7:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I sure do applaud "Stephen Hand", he is One Fine Man in my eyes and beliefs and his books are fantastic too, I have all of them!
The banning of swords idea makes me sad Sad !

So much progress has been made in the quality of medieval replicas and hybrid swords of the medieval type swords from the centuries ago, all the books being authored, documentaries being done and then this situation comes about.

Could this ban come about in the United States I wonder sometimes?

I don't know, I certainly hope not, but I sure am glad that I have the large collection that I have put together in just a few years, and given the fact that my first sword was acquired in July of 2005, my collection could be much smaller. So with things being as they are and who knows if this could come about in America? So I sure am glad that I went gang busters in building my collection in a short order of time. 13 high end production swords and somewhere about 20 swords overall, none of which are anything less than real good midrange swords.
To me, my swords are actual tangible symbols of a very important part of world and European history. A way for me to kind of touch centuries gone by and to feel that history with my own hands. My swords are a means of learning to me and they are also "Art" to me.

Basically, I just feel sad about the whole thing and I am So Grateful for people like "Stephen Hand" Exclamation

Thank you Nathan and Chad for your posting of some very important guidelines!

Sincerely!

Bob

It IS What It IS! Only In Truth, Can Reality Exist!
To "Learn" we must empty our minds and therefore open our mind and spirit. A wet sponge absorbs no water. A preconceived mind is recalcitrant to new knowledge!
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,121

PostPosted: Tue 15 Apr, 2008 10:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mike,

Thanks for the info. I found a store opened up here in Soton selling swords in November. When I asked about the ban and how they were told to enforce it they said they were given little real definite information and that they would just stop selling all curves swords period to avoid the confusion no matter if the person had a card or whatnot. Still waiting to hear back from the police department but my chat with the person there those weeks back did not seem to think anything would really change in personal ownership. I guess that is right from what I have seen so far, it is the dealers who now have to figure out this new law.

RPM
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Proposed ban of ALL swords by October 2008
Page 3 of 5 Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum