[Arne Focke]

I am not familar with that book. Who is the Author?
Can you remember which bog find it was?

[Michael Matthys]

Arne,
The book's author is J. Christoph Amberger. Published by Multi-Media Books in 1999. Pages 180 to 185 refer to these wooden weapons. I'll quote what it says about where they were found:
"During excavations at the Grosses Moor between Damme and Hunteburg in Lower Saxony - about 10 km distance from Kalkriese ... several long wooden artifacts were found in August 1992 ..."
It goes on to say that there was a newspaper article in the 'Welt am Sonntag' on March 16th 1997.
I don't think the book says where they are now but it does say that they were sent to '... Schleswig for restoration and conservation '.
I can't tell you more than that. I hope it gives you an idea of whereabouts they were found. My knowledge of German geography can't take me further than 'north west Germany not too far from the North Sea coast'.
It's quite an interesting book in several respects.
Cheers.

[Arne Focke]

Kalkriese is the place where Varus and his legions met their end, that might give you a better idea of the location.

The conservation was most likely done at "Schloß Gottorf" in Schleswig.

Thanks.

[Paul Hansen]

It's quite unlikely that the wooden swords were weapons.

I know of a Dutch find as well: a wooden short sword with a runic inscription. One theory is that it is a badge of a messenger.

[Lafayette C Curtis]

[Ken Speed]

Lafayette suggested,"Then perhaps the "accepted ideas" need some re-examination! "

Yes, I agree.

Lafayette continued, "Considering the flood of recent scholarship about how (much more) Romanized the Germanic "barbarians" were during the last couple of centuries of the Roman Empire's existence (counting the West, not the Byzantine) than we originally thought, I can't help wondering about how much more Romanized the older "barbarians" were, too. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if somebody unearthed some evidence that Arminius and a fair proportion of his men already had Roman equipment (and perhaps some training) to begin with!"

Well, my understanding is that Arminius and his men were Roman Auxiliaries so I would think they would almost certainly have had Roman weapons. Adrian Murdoch in his book Rome's Greatest Defeat says that auxiliary forces were used by the Romans either as lightly armed infantry or as cavalry and it appears likely that Arminius' force was cavalry inasmuch as they were the vanguard and scouts for Varus' legions. Sort of like having Sitting Bull scouting for Custer!

The evidence about "proto German" weaponry seems somewhat muddy. Murdoch mentions a grave found in Luxembourg in 1966 that dates from between 25 and 15 BC. The grave contained, a long iron sword, elaborately decorated scabbard, riding equipment and a bronze cauldron all of which were wholly native and yet the grave also contained Roman tableware. So at least some of these tribesmen had swords of their own local manufacture although they were "Romanized" to some degree as well. My best guess as it pertains to to the Teutoberg Massacre is that the tribesmen panicked the Romans and as they killed them used the Legionaries swords against the survivors although some may have had swords of their own.

I think the whole thing is fascinating, world history would have been totally different had the Legions gone through Teutoberg Wald and not been destroyed.


I've mentioned these two books before but, if you're interested ROME'S GREATEST DEFEAT by Adrian Murdoch and THE QUEST FOR THE LOST ROMAN LEGIONS by Tony Clunn (the man who found the battlesite) are both well worth reading.

[Paul Hansen]

Maybe it's nitpicking, but I think that the term "Romanised" is used a little bit too freely in this discussion.

Using Roman weapons and perhaps having gleaned some strategies does not make them "Romanised" in the same way as, for instance, Gaul or Sicily were Romanised. In my opinion, it is clear that Germania retained it's own separate culture, including in some ways material culture.

[Ken Speed]

Well, in this discussion we're talking primarily about the weaponry used by the pre-German tribesmen who participated in the Teutoberg Massacre and there appears to be a disconnect between the forensic evidence and the literary record about the arms of the tribesmen. It appears that the remains of the Romans who died there indicate that many of them were apparently killed with swords and yet the tribesmen were supposedly armed primarily with javelins. So when we're talking about romanisation we are talking about the use of swords rather than javelins. The degree to which the tribesmen of this area assimilated Roman culture is secondary.

[Len Parker]

Scroll down to p.29 for wooden swords: https://faos.ku.dk/ansatte/?pure=files%2F118391302%2F2007_Grane_PhD_dissertation.pdf

[Matthew Amt]

[Sean Manning]

[Matthew Amt]

Heck, I'd forgotten about scutching knives! Yes, anyone processing flax *or hemp* would have one (or more). I *believe* England was importing a lot of canvas from Scandinavia in the 18th century, and that comes from hemp (before it became a cotton word). But I don't know if hemp was common in Scandinavia in ancient times.

Matthew

[Jeff Cierniak]

I wouldn't entirely discount even wooden "swords" actually being weapons. The paper mentions "cut marks from use in battle" though there is no way for the author to know that without question. It also mentions Tacitus stating that most of the Germanic warriors didn't have steel weapons.

Wouldn't be my first choice, but I wouldn't want to be hit by one either. Elbows, wrists, open faces of most Roman helmets would be plenty good targets for a one handed, semi-edged club. Could a wooden sword "catch" sharp iron blades like a shield might? Pure conjecture, admittedly.

[Dan Howard]

[Matthew Amt]

[Jeff Cierniak]

Yes, I certainly considered the training weapons angle as well. They do look like weapons with points, curves, and grip shapes. I was considering more something like that, and "pressed into service" if needed rather than made and chosen for the purpose of battle. I just don't like the "ceremonial use" angle that is so often brought up when folks are unsure of something. Then again, maybe it was ceremonial use!

[Len Parker]

Viking weaver's sword: http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/category/medieval/page/20