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Vincent Le Chevalier
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 Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| Sam N. wrote: | | Oh yeah, also, I heard that reports from battlesites indicate that leg wounds were very common. Does anyone know more? I think it might be relevant to the leg-targeting debate. |
There is this diagram indicating some of the wounds found on corpses from Visby:
So yes the lower leg was hit frequently. However it does not say much about the level of the fighters or what technique or weapon made the wounds...
I have something to bring to the debate of sword vs. polearms, that could maybe give some food for thoughts. I am studying kenjutsu from the Katori Shinto Ryu school. I can't claim being expert or anything (merely 1 Dan). The basic paired katas are teacher vs. student. The teacher always uses the sword. The student uses various weapons: sword of course, but also bo (long staff) and naginata (akin to the western glaive). I know 2 katas for naginata and 4 for bo.
Obviously they are designed so that the teacher is not utterly overwhelmed, but they are also made to teach the use of the other weapon in an efficient way... They generally go on like this:
- teacher launches an out of reach attack, forcing the student to react
- student reacts, counters, and multiple exchanges ensue.
There are general principles that can be drawn. The polearm wielder avoids staying in binds for too long, because at one point the sword snaps out of it faster than the polearm can defend. All the more true for the staff, probably because of the lack of blade... And, there are no hits to the lower leg. Knee hits are present, tighs get cut, but not so much shin. Except in very specific situations, for example when the student is kneeling after he has made a strong attack to the head or body.
For the naginata it might be explained by the specific grip used, that does not make full use of reach (we grip it in the middle), but allows the use of the butt-end. But the bo could very well use hits to the shin and does not (we use an asymetric grip, with one hand at the extremity).
So I don't know. I don't have the reason behind these katas, why the moves are such. But it could very well be that we are missing something obvious about the lethality of the lower leg wound, or the practicality of the move against a trained opponent with real weapons...
What would happen to the lower-leg strike, in your experience Sam, if the swordman (shield or not) merely advances with the blade lowered to protect the legs? Do you think the initial strike still works?
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Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 10:24 am Post subject: |
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SCA replicated ARMOURED combat. You calibrate for maile...even if you wear plate (or nothing at all). So slicing will do you no good.
As for why western styles have heavier blows...they DON'T. Eastern styles when they deal with armor attack as heavily as western arts do. When you remove the armor (like say rapier as mentioned), then it's as much finesse as the eastern style. A jian used against a full plate kit will be nigh useless...especially if you try to do slice attacks against it. As for thrown weapons, I can block arrows with my shield. You think a thrown weapon that goes slower is gonna be impossible? Oh and full plate isn't so bad. I can actually tumble in a full kit if it's sized for me.
Now for the last time...assuming your not going against a complete noob, lower leg shot with a polearm is a BAD idea against a shieldman. I don't have to punchblock very much to block a lower leg shot...or even a toe shot. My shield is in a position to nullify ALL your attacks at that point and I have a weapon ready and willing to take your head off. If you let a threat of getting your fingers or toes hit make you sloppy, your a noob. I'm sorry, but thats what the peasant levies do. Trained swordmen go...oh opening...thank you very much...you can have my toes, I'll just take your head. That is what we call a bad trade.
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Sam N.
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| Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| Vincent Le Chevalier wrote: | | What would happen to the lower-leg strike, in your experience Sam, if the swordman (shield or not) merely advances with the blade lowered to protect the legs? Do you think the initial strike still works? |
People have tried it before, doing things such as, with a longsword, standing in Alber (a guard from the German school where the point is held towards the ground and the sword is held low), or with the shield high and sword low. In both these variations, the weak of the sword is protecting the leg, so the polearm usually just powers through the guard and it seems to work almost every time.
However, I forgot to mention earlier, but there is one guard that seems to work against a low polearm attack. Fabris shows it in the back of his book, in the instruction of how to defeat a polearm with a rapier. It consists of holding the sword, with one hand on the handle and one hand one the blade, completely vertical. I have seen this guard work quite well, but it can only be used with a longsword or some other two-handed weapon (unless you want to drop your shield). if the polearm thrusts or cuts the sword held in this position can block all but the lowest attacks, the follow up is slipping inside after the polearm's attack and half-swording (using the sword like a short spear). This approach seems to work about 40% of the time, which is actually quite good in my opinion (considering how mismatched the bout seems to be).
Here are two examples of this type of guard:
 Attachment: 126.97 KB
Bottom left corner shows a two-hander held in an anti-polearm guard. [ Download ]
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Sam N.
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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RE: Visby Wounds.
The Visby Finds are very interesting but there is a number of things to keep in mind. First, the excavation was done in the 1930's under those standards. Archeology back then was often destructive and not so precise. It is unlikely that most thrusts into the body would have been noticed and counted.
From what I have read the most common wound was to the skull. There was a fair number of wounds to the back of the skull and back. Normally I would have said that these are wrap shots except for all the shots to the left arm. That means there is no shield there. At the time of the injuries to the left arm, the shield is gone or they had no shields to begin with. If they don't have a shield then there is no point to throwing wrap shots that go around the shield. This tells me that these guys were most likely running away when killed. It is also interesting that there were not cuts to the hands reported. It makes sense that if they were in full retreat there would not be any shots to their hands. I would not expect hand shots with a shield, but I would expect it without one.
Lastly it was concluded that the a fair number of people were fairly elderly rather then young. This likely means that this was a militia rather then soldiers. Also the fact that the report included people with both their legs cut off signifies that some people were also entertaining themselves in a malicious way by hacking up wounded men.
There is no denying that there are a lot of wounds to the lower legs. The question is were these sheildmen? If so how do you explain the left arm wounds. I think it was reported that there were more to the arm then the right arm. It would not make sense that their were more lefties then righties. The report said that they found a lot of arrow wounds too. It might make more sense that they were hacked to pieces after wounded with arrows.
I think the Visby finds are important, I just think that we need more information to full understand it.
Vincent, where did you get the diagram?
People have tried that guard against me when rapier fencing. I just pick their hand off with a thrust. With a polearm I would not bother with the thrust. I would just cut down to their wrist. Or strike the bottom hand. If you miss you can try again. You can do that all day, the short weapon is no threat at that range.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Steven Reich
Location: Arlington, VA Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | | People have tried that guard against me when rapier fencing. I just pick their hand off with a thrust. With a polearm I would not bother with the thrust. I would just cut down to their wrist. Or strike the bottom hand. If you miss you can try again. You can do that all day, the short weapon is no threat at that range. |
That plate is from Fabris' 1606 rapier manual. Apparently, Fabris didn't have your extensive experience when he wrote that...
Steve
Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
Last edited by Steven Reich on Sun 09 Mar, 2008 2:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | | Vincent, where did you get the diagram? |
It had been posted before by Kirk Lee Spencer so I just linked it back. The original post is here:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=23410#23410
I can't believe I forgot about Fabris' guard, when I have Tom Leoni's translation lying here by my bed  One thing to note is that he leaves it partly as a sort of 'exercise to the reader', so once again we are reasonably sure it should work, but how exactly...
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Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Sam N.
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| Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | | From what I have read the most common wound was to the skull. There was a fair number of wounds to the back of the skull and back. Normally I would have said that these are wrap shots except for all the shots to the left arm. |
My understanding is that the "wrap shot" used in the SCA (flipping your sword from true edge to false edge to strike the opponent's back with your false edge from a shoulder strike, correct me if I'm wrong) don't actually aerodynamically work with an actual sword. With a cylindrical blade, they work fine, but with a flat blade, they lose their power. At least, that is what I have heard.
Also, I am curious why I haven't seen any sort of "wrap shots" mentioned in any of the manuals I have heard of or read. You'd think such an effective technique would be mentioned.
I hate to be slightly disparaging, but I just don't think it is accurate to draw many conclusions about real combat from SCA combat. When rules limiting targets and unrealistic weaponry get introduced, the systems becomes one that is in some way divorced from real combat (as all sparring systems somewhat are). Therefore, techniques and tactics get developed that are meant to use the rules of that system for maximum benefit, not doing that means losing to those who do. In a competitive atmosphere like the SCA, people will use what works best within the system, which might be different than what works with real swords.
An interesting example come from my own practice, the padded simulators I use distort the physics somewhat, therefore I must make sure not to use that artificial element as a crutch to win fights. I have to force myself to act as if it was a real sword rather than making full use of what it really is. However, someone who makes full use of the weapon's actual physics rather than trying to be realistic will beat me 10 out of 10 times.
SCA fighting is practical and is is extremely pragmatic, but it is so within the system. It contains elements that replicate real combat, such as timing and speed and probably others I cannot think of, but it also has some unrealistic factors like weapon weight and shape, force used in blows (perhaps) and limited targets. I think it's a great and fun system with many benefits, but it cannot tell us everything about real combat.
Now that that pseudo-rant is done (really sorry to the SCA members out there, I mean no offense. I am not trying to imply your system is any less respectable). I think the best answer to these issues is to see what the manuals and contemporary accounts have to say about polearms vs. shorter weapons. I know Silver says polearms are superior, but does any master say they are inferior?
Last edited by Sam N. on Sun 09 Mar, 2008 3:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ken Speed
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| Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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Vassilis wrote,"The Visby Finds are very interesting but there is a number of things to keep in mind. First, the excavation was done in the 1930's under those standards. Archeology back then was often destructive and not so precise. It is unlikely that most thrusts into the body would have been noticed and counted."
Yes, one of the problems I've heard about using the Visby finds is that soft tissue damage doesn't show on skeletons.
Vassilis continued, "... it was concluded that the a fair number of people were fairly elderly rather then young. This likely means that this was a militia rather then soldiers."
Actually the corpses were significantly missing men in their young and middle adult years. Apparently the defenders were little more than a fairly hastily assembled collection of peasantry who were asked to face an actual army and its almost a sure thing that many of these men were killed while running away from adversaries who were far better warriors than they.
Vassilis also says, "I think the Visby finds are important, I just think that we need more information to full understand it."
I think it is probably stretching things too far to apply the data from Visby to other battle sites, I think there are just too many things that are either atypical or skewed with/about the actual event.
Ken Speed
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Sam N.
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| Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Ken Speed wrote: | Vassilis wrote,"The Visby Finds are very interesting but there is a number of things to keep in mind. First, the excavation was done in the 1930's under those standards. Archeology back then was often destructive and not so precise. It is unlikely that most thrusts into the body would have been noticed and counted."
Yes, one of the problems I've heard about using the Visby finds is that soft tissue damage doesn't show on skeletons.
Vassilis continued, "... it was concluded that the a fair number of people were fairly elderly rather then young. This likely means that this was a militia rather then soldiers."
Actually the corpses were significantly missing men in their young and middle adult years. Apparently the defenders were little more than a fairly hastily assembled collection of peasantry who were asked to face an actual army and its almost a sure thing that many of these men were killed while running away from adversaries who were far better warriors than they.
Vassilis also says, "I think the Visby finds are important, I just think that we need more information to full understand it."
I think it is probably stretching things too far to apply the data from Visby to other battle sites, I think there are just too many things that are either atypical or skewed with/about the actual event.
Ken Speed |
True, a single battle is not exactly representative of the entire 600AD to 1650 AD period. Does anyone have records from any other battles so we can compare?
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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Many good points in your pseudo-rant, I think, Sam.
| Sam N. wrote: | | I think the best answer to these issues is to see what the manuals and contemporary accounts have to say about polearms vs. shorter weapons. I know Silver says polearms are superior, but does any master say they are inferior? |
I'm not even sure there are so many masters that compare between weapons in such a general manner. Fighting with similar weapons has probably been stressed upon for judicial duels, where equality is important. In a self-defence context, polearms are not all that likely either, as they are a bit impractical to carry around. That leaves battle field, but in this situation the fact that it is many against many changes the problem completely.
Then there is the pedagogical usefulness of the weapon. It seems to me that masters tend to focus on what they believe allow you to learn the principles most thoroughly and quickly. The sword alone seems to have benefited from this pedagogical approach from the Renaissance on, at least, in Europe. There is the same tendency in Japanese schools.
I'm fairly convinced that Girard Thibault would have bet on the single rapier against any weapon including polearms. Point in case, he describes how to fight a musket, though he admits his method might reach its limit here
Is he more right than Silver? I don't know. But I would not discard the hypothesis that the question of polearm vs. sword was perhaps less relevant to them than we modern might think.
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Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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The skeletons from the Visby mass graves where not preserved as skeletons; they where sorted by type of bone... All the shins in one box, all the skulls in one place...
The high proportion of left arm wounds could be consistent with spearmen, leading with their left foot. This would also explain why there are so few right arm wounds; If you get in close enough, you hit him in the head instad.
As for the wrap shot, it CAN be done with a sharp sword. However it does not have nearly the same damage potential as a front edge strike. Most wrap attacks would thus be thrusts to the face rather than blows to the side of the head.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Benjamin H. Abbott
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| Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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Swetnam also gave odds, favoring the staff over his beloved rapier and dagger given equal skill. Perhaps it was an English thing. A 17th-century play, Work for Cutlers, roughly supports Silver's hierarchy, with the bill having odds against the sword and the two-handed sword against the single rapier.
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=j_...8#PPA45,M1
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Steven Reich wrote: | | Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | | People have tried that guard against me when rapier fencing. I just pick their hand off with a thrust. With a polearm I would not bother with the thrust. I would just cut down to their wrist. Or strike the bottom hand. If you miss you can try again. You can do that all day, the short weapon is no threat at that range. |
That plate is from Fabris' 1606 rapier manual. Apparently, Fabris didn't have your extensive experience when he wrote that...
Steve |
I think what we have to keep in mind with these little anectodal "but I beat this guy with that weapon" stories is that in the vast, vast majority of instances, neither the narrator nor "this guy" have any actual HEMA training and are basing their findings on homegrown fighting systems or just plain fooling around.
I've thought and said many foolish things in the past, particularly in the early 90s when I was starting out in JSA. Almost all of them were based on me having beaten "this guy with that weapon", and almost all of them were wrong. When I read some of those things now, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
Last edited by Michael Edelson on Sun 09 Mar, 2008 8:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sean Smith
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| Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Sam N. wrote: | I hate to be slightly disparaging, but I just don't think it is accurate to draw many conclusions about real combat from SCA combat. When rules limiting targets and unrealistic weaponry get introduced, the systems becomes one that is in some way divorced from real combat (as all sparring systems somewhat are). Therefore, techniques and tactics get developed that are meant to use the rules of that system for maximum benefit, not doing that means losing to those who do. In a competitive atmosphere like the SCA, people will use what works best within the system, which might be different than what works with real swords.
An interesting example come from my own practice, the padded simulators I use distort the physics somewhat, therefore I must make sure not to use that artificial element as a crutch to win fights. I have to force myself to act as if it was a real sword rather than making full use of what it really is. However, someone who makes full use of the weapon's actual physics rather than trying to be realistic will beat me 10 out of 10 times.
SCA fighting is practical and is is extremely pragmatic, but it is so within the system. It contains elements that replicate real combat, such as timing and speed and probably others I cannot think of, but it also has some unrealistic factors like weapon weight and shape, force used in blows (perhaps) and limited targets. I think it's a great and fun system with many benefits, but it cannot tell us everything about real combat.
Now that that pseudo-rant is done (really sorry to the SCA members out there, I mean no offense. I am not trying to imply your system is any less respectable). I think the best answer to these issues is to see what the manuals and contemporary accounts have to say about polearms vs. shorter weapons. I know Silver says polearms are superior, but does any master say they are inferior? |
Going slightly OT:
That all depends on your context. If you are referring to an age where the armour was significantly different than what the SCA represents (say 1400's) I would tend to agree with you. However, overlooking the cavalry aspect, I would say the SCA does a very good job in representing combat circa 1150, which is consistant with our armour standard. There have been people in the SCA, who are wearing LH equivalents of the "armoured standard", basically a Norman helm and hauberk, and been hit with blunts with the same force we use in SCA combat. Most report they would be significantly battered as to affect their ability to move effectively (aka. battered to all hell) in 3-5 blows. We currently have a one shot kill, so as to reflect someone being bested (and the fact that it would hurt significantly in reality). Grappling and lower leg shots would not have been common during this age, as the most common weapons would have been sword and shield (for those able to afford a sword), and spears, which is functions significantly different than a later period polearm. So in the context of 1100-1200, I believe that SCA combat decently reflects the combat, as much as we are able, given the limited training and armour we require. It is about keeping the design of the system in mind, that system not reflecting the original scenario of a later period polearm vs. sword.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Steven Reich wrote: |
That plate is from Fabris' 1606 rapier manual. Apparently, Fabris didn't have your extensive experience when he wrote that...
Steve |
Steve,
The sarcasm is entirely unnecessary.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Benjamin H. Abbott
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| Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Most report they would be significantly battered as to affect their ability to move effectively (aka. battered to all hell) in 3-5 blows. We currently have a one shot kill, so as to reflect someone being bested (and the fact that it would hurt significantly in reality). |
I don't know. I've read accounts of mail-clad warriors ignoring multiple attacks from swords and axes. I have trouble accepting one-shot stops from single-handed swords as a realistic standard.
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Sean Smith
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| Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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There are also accounts of men needing several days to recover from tourneys where melees were held (IIRC, it was a 12th or 13th century source). I was careful about what I said, making sure not to say that a person would be out of the fight after one shot. That was the first part of what you quoted. We choose to work at the standard of one blow, as we subject ourselves to full speed combat quite a bit more than someone would, even on campaign. We are also not in anywhere near as good of a shape as they would have been back then.
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | | Steven Reich wrote: |
That plate is from Fabris' 1606 rapier manual. Apparently, Fabris didn't have your extensive experience when he wrote that...
Steve |
Steve,
The sarcasm is entirely unnecessary. |
hmmm... I did not consider that he might have been a sarcastic. There is a lot of stuff I have come across in rapier manuals that I don't use and most rapier fighters don't use. I think a lot of it is a hold over from an earlier periods. Rapier is my best fighting form and I am very good at picking off peoples hands. Further more my hands are fast enough that I don't need any cup hilts or swept hilts, I fight with a simple crossguard on my rapier.
Below is a link to the point control that is possible with training.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy10yv_3sEg
You can not underestimate a rapier thrust. Even though I use flexiblades, I have accidentally dented peoples fencing masks when I misjudged the distance. I can easily incapacitate a bare hand.
| Sam N. wrote: |
My understanding is that the "wrap shot" used in the SCA (flipping your sword from true edge to false edge to strike the opponent's back with your false edge from a shoulder strike, correct me if I'm wrong) don't actually aerodynamically work with an actual sword. With a cylindrical blade, they work fine, but with a flat blade, they lose their power. At least, that is what I have heard.
Also, I am curious why I haven't seen any sort of "wrap shots" mentioned in any of the manuals I have heard of or read. You'd think such an effective technique would be mentioned.
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Sam, the reason why I think wraps are not mentioned in manual is because there are no manual that cover detailed fighting with fullsize shields. We do know that as long as shields were in use swords had double edges. Since a swordblade is stronger if it has a full-back rather then a double-edged, I think it is safe to say that the back edge was used or it would not be there.
The following video includes a demonstration of wraps. The pell I am hitting weighs about 80 lbs and is bolted to a plywood base. I think the blows are of sufficient force.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx_DcrijSI4
The purpose of this video was to demonstrate how rattan-swords compare to steel blunts... Not to show proper fighting tactics. I normally don't sit there and throw endless combinations in a fight. I usually through two or three shots and reset into a defensive guard.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
Last edited by Bill Tsafa on Sun 09 Mar, 2008 6:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Steven Reich
Location: Arlington, VA Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | | There is a lot of stuff I have come across in rapier manuals that I don't use and most rapier fighters don't use. I think a lot of it is a hold over from an earlier periods. Rapier is my best fighting form and I am very good at picking off peoples hands. Further more my hands are fast enough that I don't need any cup hilts or swept hilts, I fight with a simple crossguard on my rapier. |
King Christianus IV didn't hire Fabris as his personal sword master because he liked Italian Fashion and Spaghetti. I'd be curious to know what exactly is a "hold over" in Fabris' book (which by the way, was actually quite advanced compared to say Giganti or Capoferro). The art of rapier is far more than a matter of sniping at people's hands, there are simple ways to deal with that if it is necessary (most "hand snipes" made with a rapier really wouldn't do much to a hand in a pair of gloves anyway).
It's great that you have a good time with the martial sports of SCA, but don't kid yourself, if you find things that are at odds with a master's treatise, it's a shortcoming of yours, not of the master.
Steve
Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
Last edited by Steven Reich on Sun 09 Mar, 2008 6:57 pm; edited 3 times in total
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