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Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
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PostPosted: Sun 16 Mar, 2008 2:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kelly Powell wrote:
Way back on this thread people were talking about the wounds found on the bones at visby.....would not a lot of those wounds be incidental other than targeted? you got hundreds of people swinging pole arms and thrusting blindly with spears and swinging god knows what at each other....missed shots have to go somewhere....redirected shots go somewhere....then there are the poor slobs that fall in the line, they are now a target of opportunity, and I can easily see them getting theres legs cut as they try to crawl back through their line.

[
To summarize what I said earlier about the Visby Wounds, I think the wounds show more evidence of people running for their lives when cut down rather then wounded while fighting. The high number of cuts to the left hand indicate that no shield was used. In no shield was used, it is odd that their are a lot of low-leg cuts. Why not aim for a higher target. Cuts to the back indicate wraps, but again if no large shield is being used, there is no need for deep wraps. It is also odd that there are no hand wounds. I think a lot of information was lost do to the low standard of archeology of the 1930's. I still am glade we have this data, perhaps we will be able to sort it out in the future if more combat graves are found.

On the possibility of incidental wounds, in SCA melees I find that unless attacks are targeted, cuts and thrust from all sorts of weapons (except projectiles) don't hit with sufficient force. They usually impact too early and don't have enough momentum or too late when their is not more umph left in the shot. So targeting is not just a mater on putting your edge or point on the right spot, but also about your own positioning relative to the target and giving it that extra pop at the right second. In combat, one way to stop a blow, if you have no other choice, is to move into it and make contact before the weapon acquires enough speed. Of course this requires some minimal armor, but if you are wearing mail, it could be the difference between a broken arm or not.

Quote:
Another opinion about shields....Us sca people do not use shields nearly as offensively as you would if your life depended on it., especially with bucklers and targets....90% for safety reasons...the other because we do embrace the victorian romantisized chivalry aspect and that would be "poor form old sport",,,,


I have done some aggressive shield play that would be considered borderline legal/illegal in the SCA. Shield bashing is a double edged knife. I have found that it can be effective for new people who don't know how to use a sword very well. But against good fighters it won't do much except open the basher up to get hit. The fact is that if person is good enough to block a sword with their shield that is coming in at 150 mph, they are going be able to block a shield bash that is only moving at 30 mph and is much bigger and easier to see. I have found that some more effective tricks to do with the shield that are perfectly legal in the SCA are shield hooks and pins. I have not fought much with a buckler & arming-sword, but I have observed that buckler fighters are very mindful of their range. They try to stay near the end of it, so a bucker smash to the face is out of range in most cases.

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
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Sean Smith





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PostPosted: Sun 16 Mar, 2008 3:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, but a heater corner to the face will do quite a bit. That is one area most of us are very lax in, as there is no real need to practice it (outside the rules and all that). All it takes it for me to get my shield inside of yours, and you could be in for some serious bruising. But that would be highly dangerous, as a shield attached to my entire arm can generate quite a bit more momentum than swinging a sword (relatively speaking).
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Bill Tsafa




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PostPosted: Sun 16 Mar, 2008 4:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Corner to the face and also a corner in the armpit can be nasty too if you can get it in there.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
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Kelly Powell




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PostPosted: Mon 17 Mar, 2008 8:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

and are we talking a duel or melee?
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Bill Tsafa




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PostPosted: Mon 17 Mar, 2008 10:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The straps usually only break in melee, but can happen in singles combat too. Wooden shields can start breaking up in either. Once I was fighting a guy and my rattan just made a semi-circle into the edge of his shield. He had it for a few months with no problems, but after I took that chip out, every time I hit the edge more pieces would break off. Taking that chip out seems to have weakened the whole shield.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
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Christian Henry Tobler




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PostPosted: Mon 17 Mar, 2008 10:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill,

You haven't played with Stephen Hand with sheilds. He can open up your shield, using techniques he's extrapolated from historic ones (notably the big shield stuff in Talhoffer and the later Italian rotella work), and then punch you so hard with it that it'll render you senseless, helmet notwithstanding.

Much of the problem lies in the very 'active' style of shield use seen through much of the SCA and other re-enactment and recreationist groups. Iconographical evidence, and that suggested in the use of similar weapons in historical treatises, instead suggest a more passive defense, with the shield held more in position and the fighter moving around it.

In any case, if you can get outside a sword and shield man's sword arm, you can keep his sword at bay with your own and punch him with the corner of the shield. This technique also appears in sword and buckler techniques in various systems.

All the best,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
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Sean Smith





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PostPosted: Mon 17 Mar, 2008 11:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian Henry Tobler wrote:

In any case, if you can get outside a sword and shield man's sword arm, you can keep his sword at bay with your own and punch him with the corner of the shield. This technique also appears in sword and buckler techniques in various systems.


I am interested in your approach to this. For sake of reference, you are talking about going to the sword-side of your opponent, while binding his weapon with your own? With a strapped shield, your arms would be crossed, hampering your ability to "counter-punch" across your body with your shield.

If you are talking about getting inside the person's shield with your own (your shield between his shield and his body), then I agree that it is possible. With your sword, you are able to threaten, guard against a swing to your head, and otherwise foul his sword. Your opponent is unable to move forward and swing "past" your shield, due to it hitting your body, and likewise would have problems hitting you with his shield. This is all based on a larger strapped shield used by both opponents.

The "more active" style of shieldwork seen in the SCA is because the emphasis seems to be more on hitting your opponent, rather than staying alive for the entire battle. I have held shields with fairly deep curves, which covered me from the shoulders down, and were curved enough they were able to be held defensively flat across the body, ala. 11th-12th century manuscripts. It was incredibly hard for any one to hit me, but by the same token, I was hampered in my ability to swing my own weapon. If I were on horseback, and able for the horse to cause significant damage while defending myself, it would be a devastating system. The other reason for the "active" shield usage is because we are not nearly as concerned with staying alive. If we are hit, we "sit out". If they were hit, they may die.
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Mon 17 Mar, 2008 11:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Most of the time, hitting people with the shield is foregone for hitting him with the sword, which is, in any case, more effective.

Shields are pretty large, and blocking a shield edge strike with your own shield isn't all that hard. In any case, binding with the shield and hitting with the sword is a better deal.

When it comes to long weapons in narrow passages, they do have a definite advantage. You can easily keep a swordsman at bay, and if he closes, you get out your backup dagger, and kill him. (or, if you have friends, let them kill him for you)

Polearms generally don't like to turn quickly; the long pole and heavy head means that they have quite a bit of inertia. The do however shine in any kind of static situation.
In a melee, longer reach means that you can more effeciently help your friends and take out those who are not watching you.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Bill Tsafa




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PostPosted: Mon 17 Mar, 2008 11:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Christian.

I have changed my style to a passive defense with minimal shield movement as is the style commonly used by the most successful fighters in the East Kingdom. Fighting around the shield is the most successful shield style in the SCA. In my prior post I referenced my early active use to illustrate the flaws of opening up the shield.

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Christian Henry Tobler




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PostPosted: Mon 17 Mar, 2008 11:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Sean,

No, your arms shouldn't be crossed.

Imagine your opponent strikes to your left side. You parry this with the shield, bring your sword around and/or over his sword to pick up the parry on his outside, step with your left foot to his right side and then execute either an elbow push or strike with the shield's corner to his face.

Hope this helps,

CHT

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Christian Henry Tobler




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PostPosted: Mon 17 Mar, 2008 11:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Elling,

It depends - if he's wearing a great helm, a blow with the shield can be much more traumatic than one with the edge of a sword, which is likely to lose much energy in glancing off.

All the best,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Mon 17 Mar, 2008 12:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian Henry Tobler wrote:
Hello Elling,
It depends - if he's wearing a great helm, a blow with the shield can be much more traumatic than one with the edge of a sword, which is likely to lose much energy in glancing off.


Possibly. But If if you have an opening big enough to punch a shield through against an armoured opponent, you would be better of just putting the shield on his neck and taking him down rather than trying to bash him hard enough for him to stop him in his tracks.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Sean Smith





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PostPosted: Mon 17 Mar, 2008 1:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ok, I think I am visualizing what you are talking about. Your sword movement is to keep him from freeing his sword farther to your left to reset? I am still seeing the fact that your right hand is past your left hand, but I do see where you are getting the power for your shield strike.
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Mon 17 Mar, 2008 2:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Smith wrote:
Ok, I think I am visualizing what you are talking about. Your sword movement is to keep him from freeing his sword farther to your left to reset? I am still seeing the fact that your right hand is past your left hand, but I do see where you are getting the power for your shield strike.


I'm not Christian, but I do use this technique.
Basically, as soon as you left foot lands, you keep on pivioting as you strike, so that you end up in stance, with the shield extended.

This probably belongs in the shield theory thread, though.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Steven H




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PostPosted: Mon 17 Mar, 2008 7:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

When discussing the value of polearms versus shorter weapons (like sword and shield), it is important to understand the historical way in which they were used.

This video shows Paul Wagner and Graham using rattan staves to do Silver's staff fighting. The video is the best example of polearm use I've seen. Best because the wards, grip and techniques shown are consistent with period treatises. Many of the techniques used here would seriously frustrate the sword and shield fighter from the earlier videos.

This video shows more techniques of the kind which are possible with a polearm. This video well demonstrates the principle that the entire polearm is a weapon and is well used from outside-of-sword-range to grappling. You can thrust, parry and strike at the same time, hit with the back end etc.

A fighter using these techniques would do much better against a sword and shield.

I'll get off the soapbox now.

Cheers,
Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Bill Tsafa




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PostPosted: Mon 17 Mar, 2008 10:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice Vids! Thanks for posting.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Kelly Powell




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PostPosted: Tue 18 Mar, 2008 6:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

On the first vid most of that was pole arm 101....some of the moves used are favorites of great swordsmen(as in long swords..not the fighters being great Big Grin )
The 2cnd vid....I understand the reason for that kind of training...and the instructor obviously knows what he is doing...It's just that I have never been a big fan of the "you move like this and I then execute said move while you stay still".....I am not disparaging the trainer or the class in anyway, it just gives me flashbacks to roommates taking tae kwon do and showing me the move they learned that night....And then getting pissed off because I didnt fall down like I was supposed to or did not just stand there while they preformed the 5 palm strike exploding heart technique. Laughing Out Loud
I did like the butt spike strike he was showing,,,,very crisp.
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Michael Edelson




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PostPosted: Tue 18 Mar, 2008 9:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kelly Powell wrote:
On the first vid most of that was pole arm 101....some of the moves used are favorites of great swordsmen(as in long swords..not the fighters being great Big Grin )
The 2cnd vid....I understand the reason for that kind of training...and the instructor obviously knows what he is doing...It's just that I have never been a big fan of the "you move like this and I then execute said move while you stay still".....I am not disparaging the trainer or the class in anyway, it just gives me flashbacks to roommates taking tae kwon do and showing me the move they learned that night....And then getting pissed off because I didnt fall down like I was supposed to or did not just stand there while they preformed the 5 palm strike exploding heart technique. Laughing Out Loud
I did like the butt spike strike he was showing,,,,very crisp.


There is a difference between learning or demonstrating a technique and executing that techique. When learning/demonstrating, your partner's cooperation is required. When executing, it is not.

In HEMA (and all martial arts I've ever studied), a technique is almost always done in response to a specific situation (he is hard at the sword, his point is offline, etc.). When learning, it is your partner's responsibility to set up that situation. If he does not, he is a bad partner. In reality, you would only execute that technique if that specific situation presented itself naturally....no cooperation required.

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Kelly Powell




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PostPosted: Tue 18 Mar, 2008 11:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree with you sir... i understand the reasons why....But you hit the nail on the head with "Bad partner", and I should add "Bad teacher"....not the guy on the vid, but some of the jack asses I have met in my life who would use the situation(showing a class the series of moves they will be practicing) and using the implied submissiveness of their training partner....for lack of a better word. By "submissive" i mean that they are following the instructors and partners lead and not initiating a unknown) to either flaunt their alpha personality through either humiliation or sadistic behaivor.....That little to much torque or adding a unknown flourish or move to embarrass their partner or the using of the class pell for demostrations.....I have seen a lot of what could of been good students who ended up saying F$%K IT! and leaving.
I may be SCA and love the freedom that is allowed someone in their approach to learning....I personally would benefit from the structure and technical approach to fighting that ARMA and it's fellows offer....Would have the best of both worlds.....Doesnt stop me from cringing at some of the memories of the really bad instructors/head students I have seen in my life.....Just like most of you are cringing at my piss poor sentance structure Laughing Out Loud
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Fri 21 Mar, 2008 5:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gary A. Chelette wrote:
From the History of Musashi:
Quote:
One exception to this rule was a fight in Enmyo, against Miyake Gunbei, in which Musashi first used his two-sword style in a duel. He killed Gunbei, and named the style Enmyo-Ryu, after the duel (Ryu means school, or style). Later he changed the name to Nito Ichi-Ryu (Two Swords integrated as One School), and then again to Niten Ichi-Ryu. Niten means 'two heavens', and is thought to refer to Musashi's most famous combat stance, with two daito raised above his head. It is said that on his death, not one of Musashi's students could master Niten Ichi-Ryu, and the style died with its creator.

http://www.iyume.com/musashi/musashi.htm

I have studied Japanese art and history for over 35 years and taught Japanese martial arts for over 25 years. Musashi was a favorite of mine.


All right. I gladly bow to superior knowledge. Still, now we only have evidence for the use of two swords in a duel, not on a battlefield.


Bennison N wrote:
Read Turnbull, is all I have to say, Lafayette. He does great research. He is, however, a pure historian... Excellent references... Have fun... He did a good Ninja book as well. It would have been great if the pig-headed, proud Samurai worked together always as you described, but unfortunately, certain Samurai sought out other certain Samurai on the battlefield, and a fully-armoured, Daimyo sanctioned duel would erupt. It is purely Bushido. To live it is to really understand it.


Quote him, then. I don't think I recall Turnbull saying any of the things you wrote in that post. Most importantly, give me proof that he said samurai didn't work together in large tactical units.

Note that personal duels before a battle or during the lulls does not negate the possibility of a disciplined army on the whole. Ancient Romans often engaged in such duels during their most expansionistic period between the 2nd century BC and 2nd century AD, and yet we have plenty of proof of their army's discipline. Later, the Byzantines under Belisarius also frequently sent their champions out against their enemies'--without compromising the level of discipline in their armies as a whole, except when the Arabs began to use this against them and intentionally call out Byzantine officers into these kinds of duels in order to whittle down the Byzantines' leadership.
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