[Chase S-R]

[Elling Polden]

The Viking age is only the Viking age in north-western europe; i.e the area affected by scandinavian raiding.
The word Viking only means pirate. In the later sagas, Saracen pirates in the Mediterranean are called "Heathen vikings".
As such, the rus traders in the east would not be vikings at all, since they where not raiders.

As for byzantine military equipment in scandinavia, as far as I know there is found no weapons of byzantine origin in scandinavia in this period. If you could buy as good or better weapons and armour from the franks, who are closer, why import weapons from byzantium?
Because there are found a lot of imported frankish goods; Swords, spears, and other items.
And in the end of the day, mail covers a larger area, and requires less maintainance than lammelar.

So, we are discussing something we KNOW they had access to vs something that they might, with a bit of goodwill, could get hold of.

Practically, one is better of wearing mail, showing people something that is right, and telling people about Birka, that wearing lammelar, which could be wrong, and having to tell people that what you are wearing might not be what they looked like.

[Shayan G]

Sorry for a brief random question:

Regarding Frankish trade, would Frankish-produced swords (or armor) be found in Dublin while it was under Norse control? My Irish Archaeology teacher had a slide of what he called a Frankish sword, which surprised me, but he's a great teacher so I don't have reason to doubt him except my own ignorance. I have little knowledge of "Viking" (sorry Mr. Polden!) sword types but it looked an awful lot like the Albion Vinland (which google tells me is a type R if that makes any difference). Were the Franks the big armor/weapons producers of Western and Northern Europe in the Early Medieval era?

[Chase S-R]

Viking comes from old norse vik -meaning creek or inlet and -ing meaning coming from. Originaly it was used as a verb you were not a viking, you went viking or raiding. Its first use as a noun was in Nantes in 843 as ''Vikerjar'' or travelers by sea, or ''Rotsi''/"Rodskarler" meaning rowers/seamen. If you want to be more specific here are some terms you should be common with
Svear-Sweden
Nordes-Norway
Danes-Denmark
Jutes-Juteland (now part of Denmark)
Goths-Gotland
Saying the ''Viking Age" means from between 793 a.d.-1066a.d.

[Chuck Russell]

[Chase S-R]

I believe things must be plausible and have some reference but especialy an organic item doesnt need much hard evidence. If it could have existed it may have and thus should not be written off as false, absence of evidence isnt evidence of absence. We must also not be locked into a ''freight train rule'' if you dont understand what I mean read Sword in Hand by Ewart oakeshott. I used to be much more like you until I read that book.

[Ken Speed]

Hi Guys,


If you haven't looked at the pictures from the Talinn (Sp?) museum I think you would be interested to do so. There is a picture of armor made of sewn together plates of baleen (something like whalebone). Now I know that baleen isn't leather and I'm sure baleen armor is incredibly rare but it is armor made from organic material and isn't it a type of lamellar armor?
I asked the gentleman who posted the pictures if he knew anything more about it just a few minutes ago.

Ken Speed

[Sean Smith]

[Jean Thibodeau]

I think speculation is still allowed but it's important to not confuse what is possible or even probable with what is proven.

In some cases inference and speculation is about the only thing we have when solid evidence is totally absent.

So at the very least we can compare possibility and try to evaluate probability and eliminate the outliers and try to arrive at some number of theories that would still need evidence to decide between.

[Scott Eschenbrenner]

There is always a problem when one makes a conclusion first and then tries to support it with research. The way it's supposed to work is that the conclusion comes at the end. Otherwise, you'll discard the evidence that doesn't fit your belief, and place too much emphasis on the evidence that supports it.

Kinda how the anti-evolution debate goes in this country.

Anyway, at least I learned the difference between scale and lamellar in this thread.

Regarding leather treatment, Dan Howard mentioned this a while back:

[James Barker]

[Steven H]

Additionally, not all organic material doesn't survive.

There a large number of surviving leather shoes from Roman finds, but not a scrap of leather armour.

Before dismissing organic armour as unproveable due to its perishable nature we must know how much non-armout textiles or leather survived.

-Steven

[David Huggins]

The discusssion has become circular from my original question, Is there any provenance for leather lamellar as worn by many Russ Viking re-enactors?

Like Stephen H said in referance to Roman leather ware, there are also many extant finds of Viking Age shoes, also scabbards and sheaves, not to mention the many unidentified leather scraps usually dismissed as the off-cuts of the craftsmen working in leather. There are many textile remains, and also bark 'paper' remains.But as I said in the opening question, there appears to be no remains described as leather lamellar to the best of my own knowledge.

This makes me strongly suspect that leather lamellar as stand alone armour without maille as worn by some Vikingr re-enactors, at least in the number fielded, may well be just a re-enactorism. It may have existed, the technology to produce lamellar was not unknown in the broader germanic world, but as stand alone armour what would be it's value? Mobility perhaps. It may have come via trade routes but been as rare as the Budda found at Jorvik. The sagas mention returning Varangi with trousers made from many 'yards' of cloth, why wouldn't they bring other luxury items from their travels?

Serious re-enactors do in general break down the Viking Age into early/middle/late, well aware of changes in arms and armour and location. But who can say with certainty that armies raised in the late Viking Age by the likes of Harald Sigurdson did not have warriors displaying arms and armour influenced by cultures from the Baltic or beyond?

Russ Varangi where not always traders, attempting to intimidate Mikelgarde on occasion bey a show of force.
best
Dave

[Hugh Fuller]

You know, the world of paleontology denied the relationship between birds and dinosaurs for well over a century after the discovery of Archaeopteryx first made the connection seem apparent to many. But, since it offended the Linnaean system of classification, it was denied by the scientific world, along with the possibility that some dinosaurs, at least, may have had endothermic metabolisms. But John Ostrom's discovery of Deinonychus in the 1960s led to a revolution in thinking that has been confirmed by the stunning recent discoveries from China. Now, it is the eccentrics who deny the dino-bird connection and who continue to deny the possiblity that at least some of the dinosaurs, such as the raptors, could have been endothermic. But the basic ideas were out there ever since Archaeopteryx, as testified by the work of Thomas Huxley. Perhaps we should take a lesson in humility from the paleontologists and not be quite so quick to condemn somethiong into nonexistence because we have not yet found evidence with which we agree that would support its existence.

[Sean Smith]

We are not saying that it could never possibly exist. What I and others are saying is there is no evidence currently to support this claim. To use your example, it would be like someone saying that pigs and dinosaurs being related, becuase they thought they could find a resemblance. There is no Archaeopteryx for Leather lamellar in this era.

[Paul Mortimer]

Sean,
"There is no Archaeopteryx for lamellar in this era."

But there is for metal lamellar -- read my earlier posts.


Paul

[Sean Smith]

Sorry, edited to read "Leather lamellar". Meant that, instead of all lamellar.

[Chase S-R]

I wasn't saying you should prove it existed via lack of evidence I was just saying don't totally discount it.
jeez you people snipe at everything I say, and take things way to literally why don' you start diagraming my sentences.
hey chuck nice helmet, whats it made out of? I would guess steel but you know that would be innacurate as it should be iron, steel armour didnt come about till much later.

[James R.Fox]

Dear noble gentlemen. I would like to add that the only leather lamillar I ever heard of was the mongol-turk leather armour, and they didn't have that untill they could steal lacquer from the Chinese. Soaking in lacquer make leather hard and weatherproof according to what I have read..As the bronze budda from Helgo shows the viking era scandinavians did have some slight contact with the steppe cultures and traders, but the Byzentine chroniclers, like Emperor Constantine Prophyrogenitus make it clear these contacts, both on the Dneiper and Volga trade routs, were generally Very hostile.Only the settled tribes,primarily Bulgar,,dealt peaceably. I also have to agree that good frankish swords and mail were far better, there are recorded indtances of Arab traders breaking into Russ grave to get the swords and mail and Arab work had and has a high reputation.

[Kelly Powell]

The big reason sca people who do norse personas use lamellar is that chain doesnt do alot for the blunt trauma of rattan staves......Some of them do a hidden kit and look like they are only wearing a soft kit......And yes, a good lamellar kit is uber cool....But since sca is creative anachronism....people do not give them too much grif about it.....We are just happy that they are attempting to do a rig that is at least looking like it could come from the period they are playing.
My up and coming rig , for example is based on carolingian armor , but my base persona is a person of the 9th century who lives in ireland(I picked that when I was a newbie......I am thinking about changing to a polish persona of the 12th-14th century....cooler clothes and armor)....Any way the armor is based on a body bracelet of scale....But I'll be doing bronze plaques instead and affixing suspenders to it with a leather and steel protector for the shoulder cap....over this I will have a bishops mantle of canvas affixed with bronze scale.....I actually will get morestyle points from people for the use of bronze(ok brass) then I would for copying the original......