[Ken Speed]

Michel,


Welcome, I recognize the young man third from the left in the back row, the one who looks like he is about to lose his black hat. I think the man with the red toque third from the right in the back row was there too but I'm less sure. Some of the French reenactors were in the Flint Center Sunday morning and I pointed out a particular powder horn in a display of them. This one belonged to Ephriam Putnam, who was a general in the revolutionary war and is credited with saying, "Don't shoot until you see the whites of their eyes." Since they are Canadian and Quebecois, they were less than impressed!

Thank your friends from New York and Quebec for me and tell them I thought they did a great job.

Ken Speed

[Robin Palmer]

Ken A J

Thanks for the input what can I say I am proud of being English and our history but I have to admit that we didn't always get it right in fact we dropped the ball regularly. And as much as it grates to say it the French sometimes got it right (ouch that hurt) many thanks for the information.

On the matter of the accuracy of muskets I have used a number of original brown bess muskets down the years. Two were a crooked as a dogs hind leg neither showed signs of damage simply sloppy barrels both had seen use so it is possible that over vigerous bayonet work could have bent the barrels. The third oldest was complete with original bayonet and by the marks made around 1800 with a well patched ball it could keep the balls on a torso target at 100 yards. Modern repros have much better quality barrels not least being machine bored which ensures good results. Given the original with a hand forged barrel could still keep shots on a mans torso at 100 I would expect a modern machine made repro to be at least that good.

The accuracy of old guns is often under rated by modern shooters the baker rifle is considered by many shooters to be good to 200-250 yards yet the men who used them held that that was middling distance the gun good out to 400 yards. I believe the longest confirmed aimed kill was 500 and something yards when a rifle man shot a French general. I will try and confirm the range and details.

[Robin Palmer]

P S

On the matter of treatment of the Indians maybe the federal government of the US should have taken a few pointers from the French given their treatment of the Indians once they got control from us Their record is not exactly edifying. A friend who likes a good discussion posed this question to some Americans on a site some time ago he still hasn't got a reply. Why is it when the US army won against the Indians it was a battle when they lost it was a massacre. Despite the fact a majority of the US Victorys in the plains wars seem to have a remarkable resemblance to massacre.

[Ken Speed]

Hi Robin,


You said,"... I am proud of being English and our history but I have to admit that we didn't always get it right in fact we dropped the ball regularly. " Yes, but I have to say that we in the U.S. certainly did no better. One of the really big problems now is that the Indians are such a small minority that our politicians pay lip service to treating them better when they are confronted with a problem or an issue but as soon as the lights and cameras are turned off the Indians are forgotten.

I have no experience with black powder weapons although I've been curious about them. I saw a Brown Bess that had been cut down into a pistol (it must have been damaged) in a museum once. What's that 75 caliber? Must be like throwing bricks! The First Magnum Pistol!

100 yard accuracy sounds pretty good to me with open sights and a smooth bore. Yes, old guns. A gunsmith friend of mine told me he'd go to turkey shoots (they shot FOR a turkey not AT a turkey) with an old rifle, it was like a 45/70 or something like that and he'd be shooting against these guys who had .223s and the like. Well, one of his competitors asked him what he did about windage. He said, "Nothing, the bullet is heavy enough that unless it gets struck by hail on the way its going to go where I aimed it. "

By the way, today is the anniversary of the Boston massacre in 1770, I think. Crispin Attucks was killed as were some others and he is credited to be the first Black man to be killed in the American revolution. That reminds me, the British weren't always stupid about minorities. I was watching the history channel and when the revolution first started there were a lot of Blacks who were fighting on the side of the revolutionaries but when the colonies in the South became involved they didn't like the idea of Black who had learned to be soldiers and Washington (a Southerner) wrote an order barring Blacks from carrying arms. The British (being smart this time) offered Black men freedom if they fought for them. The Southern plantations were depopulated of workers almost instantly.


Ken Speed

[MB Tharp]

"Two were a crooked as a dogs hind leg neither showed signs of damage simply sloppy barrels both had seen use so it is possible that over vigerous bayonet work could have bent the barrels."

Some of that could come from the fear of having the NCO/officer insisting that the barrels be shiny? One of the practices of the day was to take the barrel from the weapon and take the end plug out and hang it from beam by a rope and then take a long cloth with oil and brick dust and with gusto buff the barrel till shiney ! There are several barrels discovered that are rather thin in the barrel and warped do to this practice .

[J. D. Carter]

[Ken Speed]

Hi Robin,

Listen, if I offended you, I'm truly sorry that was not my intent.

Our posts went up within minutes of each other. I didn't mean to single out the British as being in any way worse than the United States; the point that I was trying to make was that the French were clever enough to USE the Indians while the British wanted to exterminate them. The U.S. unfortunately continued on the same path.

I would like to point out that the Indians were clever enough to USE the French too. It wasn't a one way street. It was pretty tough for the Indians to negotiate any kind of decent deal with the U.S. because the government A. Lied, B. Didn't care and C. wished they were all dead. North America would look like a very different place if the French hadn't lost on the Plains of Abraham and if the Battle of Batoche had turned out differently.

You wrote, "On the matter of treatment of the Indians maybe the federal government of the US should have taken a few pointers from the French given their treatment of the Indians once they got control from us Their record is not exactly edifying. A friend who likes a good discussion posed this question to some Americans on a site some time ago he still hasn't got a reply. Why is it when the US army won against the Indians it was a battle when they lost it was a massacre. Despite the fact a majority of the US Victorys in the plains wars seem to have a remarkable resemblance to massacre. You sir are letting us off far too easily. The exploitation and mistreatment are still with us today.


Ken Speed

Ken Speed

[Ken Speed]

Hi J.D.

Did you know Iron Eyes Cody was actually Italian! Apparently the real Indians he worked with knew and just let it slide.
Sometimes things are just too crazy! I think that Canada has treated their native peoples marginally better than has the U.S.

Yes, It seems that for a lot of people Indians don't get to be people, they want them to be somewhere between stereotypes and icons. I don't know if you will think this is funny but when I was a little kid I had an Indian playmate, actually I had several, but this one kid had terrible hayfever. Kind of shoots the Hell out of the image of the Indian Warrior riding to war bareback when he sneezes himself off his horse.

Once I pointed out somewhere that the scouts found the Indian encampments on the prairies by smell. Well, you'd think I'd told the people I was speaking to that Santa Claus was a myth. How could I say such a racist thing? Shame on me! Think about it, you've got say fifty warriors which might mean a total population of three hundred or so. Then they'd have at least 150 horses and who knows how many dogs. If they had latrine teepees I never heard of it. Also they would be butchering, drying meat, making leather. cooking.

I think I mentioned that one of the reenactors at Deerfield was a Mohawk. He made the point that the Europeans learned freedom from the Indians. He said if a tribe wanted to move and certain families didn't, they didn't. If a war party was going out and a particular warrior chose not to go, he didn't. I can't say that I buy his argument 100% but I don't reject it out of hand.
In school we learn that the ideals of the American revolution came from all these European humanist thinkers and I suppose that is true for the intellectuals but some settler planting corn and chopping down trees isn't going to spend a lot of time reading Locke or Rousseau but he will notice how the people around him are running their lives.

Ken Speed

[J. D. Carter]

It's funny you should choose the term "icons" You've almost mirrored something my late father in law said once about how it would be great if more people could just acknowledge that was all they had ever been nothing more or less but simply Human Beings with all the greatness, flaws, beauty and ugliness as any other civilization composed of individuals.

In a more succinct mood once he just said. ' Could you imagine if we were somehow required to live up to all the hype? lordy "

[Robin Palmer]

Hi All

Ken no offence taken none meant the Brown Bess had a nominal bore of 701caliber I state nominal the barrels were hand made winding strips of iron round a mandrel and hammer wielding them then smoothing the inside with a drill. So precise bore was not something that existed the best that could be said was the smallest was about .701caliber.

The 45.70 was the standard round for the Springfield 1873 trapdoor rifle issued to the US army and at short to medium ranges the big 500 grain slug is like a freight train.

The British army wasn't alone in recruiting blacks the Royal navy had a lot I believe something like 100 fought at Trafalga with distinction. it was one area we British did get right.

MB

I have never heard of that before the base plug of the Brown Bess was wielded into the breech and not designed to come out so I am not sure how they could do it. The Brown Bess got its name due to the browning process used to protect it from rust the barrel was dipped into a solution including urine and allowed to rust. The rust was cleaned back but not totaly the rust left in fact stopped the barrels from rusting any further. As far as I am aware the British army never polished its gun barrels it would simply insure rusting browning was replaced by chemical blueing when that became available. Other nations painted barrels I believe one American folk songs includes a reference to the practice. The thinness of barrels especially around the muzzle was usually caused by the constant rubbing of ram rods during loading. This was one of the reasons why the barrel length of surviving Brown Bess muskets often varies due to the habit of cutting barrels back when they got to thin and threatened to split.

A J

I had no no desire to get into a who screwed the most people contest simply to state that nobody had a monopoly on being dubious. Regrettably human nature tends to see what it wants to see and forget the rest I am as bad but I do try to read both sides plus like it or not the victors write the histories. A classic example was Caesar s invasion of Britian after the event he wrote a book about it which was taken as gospel by historians for centuies. Current research says that in fact he was less than honest. In fact when he advanced inland the British tribes managed to get behind him and cut him off from the sea. He was forced to negotiate a withdrawl for his forces and left. But as he wrote the history all anyone remembers is. 'I came I saw I conquered'.

[Robin Palmer]

Hi All

On the matter of gun stock clubs I just found a thread bottom of page ten historical arms talk with some good pictures.

[J. D. Carter]

They really are something to see aren't they.

I know in part my fascination with them comes from the great lengths that the owners took to turn them into functional works of art but I also suspect that my darker side is also drawn to the fact that when we're talking originals and not modern makes they were very likely used to lethal effect.

[MB Tharp]

http://www.militaryheritage.com/browning.htm

Both are correct, depends on the period? I still believe that the breech plug was removable?

[Ken Speed]

Hi Robin,

You said, "On the matter of gun stock clubs I just found a thread bottom of page ten historical arms talk with some good pictures. " I hate to sound like a dolt but I looked for it and I didn't find anything do you have a name for the thread?

Thanks,


Ken Speed

[Ken Speed]

All,

I'm amazed that this thread is meandering on the way it is. It started with a little note about a local reenactment of a 300 year old event and the reenactment is over and yet here we are chatting away and having fun!

WELL, in that case, you will all be pleased to know that here next week in the glorious and peace loving People's Democratic Republic of Massachusetts we will be celebrating (DRUM ROLL!!!!) Evacuation Day!

I'm just going to let you all worry about that one for a while!

Exit laughing so hard my ribs hurt,



Ken Speed

[MB Tharp]

Sorry folks, I am still not sure that the bess was Browned? I am still looking for info onth eBreech Plug

Cuthbertson in his book
entitled: A System for the Complete Interior Management and Economy of a
Battalion of Infantry. Dublin, 1768.

"It should be insisted on, that a soldier at all times keep his arms in
such a state of perfection, as never to be ashamed to shew them; by
having the inside of the lock well oiled, the outside of it (even to the
smallest screw-pin) with the barrel, brasses and bayonet, not only clean
and bright, but highly polished; the ramrod also must feel the attention
of the soldier, as the smoother and more polished it is, the easier will
it return through the pipes, in the performance of the firings: the
inside of the barrel, though not expected to be absolutely polished,
should yet be bright, as must the inside of the socket of the bayonet,
else it will be impossible either to fix or unfix it with the necessary
quickness: to complete the whole, the stock (after scraping it extremely
smooth) must be brought to as clear a polish, as the nature of the wood
will possibly allow; a little beeswax joined to the labour of the
soldier to rub it on, will soon accomplish a point, which, if executed
with due attention through the whole, will produce a most pleasing
effect, in the appearance of a Battalion under arms: capitulating
soldiers to such remarkable neatness, about every part of their
appointments, not only gives employment for many of those idle hours
they otherwise must have (a circumstance in itself alone quite worthy of
consideration) but beyond all doubt, encourages in them a kind of liking
for those arms, etc. which they are taught to take such care of.

KW

[Robin Palmer]

Hi M B

I can assure you it was browned I have seen enough of the originals plus an old gun smith I used to know used to refinish out guns which had become worn I helped him a couple of times to brown old shotgun barrels. His great grand father used to work for one of the contractors who made the barrels for the brown bess and bakers and all of them were browned it was the only process available at the time. The reference you have found is in no way at odds with browning the surface rust is very fine and will polish up very nicely leaving a deep dark brown appearance add oil and it gets even darker.

As to the breech plug as I understand it the 1853 Enfield was the first service weapon to have a threaded removable plug prior to that cutting screw threads was largely hand done. The Enfield was one of the first machine made weapons produced and made use of the major advances in technology not least cast steel barrels of uniform size and accurate machine boring. Which allowed mass production of uniform parts not possible at the time of the brown bess. The breech plug was hammer wielded into place as the barrel was forged. It was not designed to be removed and short of destroying the barrel I cannot see how it could be. Even if you could remove it how do you get it back in you would need to wield it back each time.

Regard Bob

[MB Tharp]

Sir, I am not doubting that you have seen these items, but we are talking early to late 18th Century British Firearms, correct?
I have given Documentation that counters your statement that it was browned, please respond in kind? I concur that yes, the Bess was browned in the 19th Century, but everything I am reading/hearing states that the Common British soldier was a spit and polish affair. Take for example:
Lee arrived at the Meeting House at the same time as the British column,
led out by the Guards Light Infantry Co. who "displaying in a moment,
gave the American cavalry a close general fire. The sun had just risen
above the trees, and shining bright, the refulgence from the British
muskets, as the soldiers presented, frightened Lee's horse . . . ."
(Lee p. 274)

SOURCE: Lee, Henry. Memoirs of the War in the Southern Department of
the United States. Robert E. Lee, ed. NY: University Publishing Co.
1869; reprinted as The American Revolution in the South, NY: Arno
Press, 1969.

and this article: http://www.revwar75.com/library/hagist/brownbess.htm

Again this is likely a misunderstanding, but if the barrel is forged and the breech plug is welded in, how did they bore the barrel out? I still would like some documentation on your part to counter this?

[Robin Palmer]

Hi M B

As I understand it the barrel was formed on a mandrel then bore was smoothed out with a drill the breech plug was then forge wielded into the breech. The drilling only smoothed the rough bits not bore out the barrel as on later guns.

Browning was the only practical method of protecting barrels which was viable for large scale production until the development of chemical blueing compounds. Charcoal blueing was used on quality pistols but the process was not viable on large scale production runs plus it was nowhere near as effective. A browned barrel is capable of taking a very nice polish May I suggest you take a piece of steel let it develop a light rust then run a wire brush over it and clean the surface rust off leaving the very fine rust then polish it the metal will come up to a high gloss but still have that brown colour at a distance the sun shining on the polished metal will hide the browning. You are right the British army was and still is an army where spit and polish are important but no more than any other army of the time. In fact if you wanted an army for rigid regulations try the Fredrick the greats army. It is also important to remember that the army in garrison and army in field were two different animals. Wellington was noted for his view that on campaign he didn't care what his troops looked like so long as their muskets were clean bayonets sharp and fit for use and every man had a full quota of flints and cartridges. Then rest was window dressing his army in the peninsular was noted for looking like an army of tramps wearing whatever they could get civilian British and French. Yet it was the finest army in the field in the world at the time. His only proviso was to ban his officers from having umbrella which he though stupid and he refused to have his officers look stupid.

P.S Fredrick the great fought eight battles won four lost four so shouldn't he be Fredrick the average

[MB Tharp]

Okay , so you can't back up this statement with other then I saw/handled? Where is the documentation? What period are you talking about? Generalized statements do not work for me, Believe what you wish. I am done!