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Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
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PostPosted: Fri 22 Feb, 2008 3:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bob Burns wrote:
Antique weapons are a tangible means of real history and of great significant value in learning for the current generations of those who came hundreds of years before and fought sometimes to their own peril for the freedoms that they enjoy in the present!


Hmm. In my perception swords were carried by the top guys and was it a tool of oppression as the common man was not even permitted one for most of the time. Just like now : give the oppressed weapons and they are called terrorists.... Idea But then again, that is MY perception Wink

peter
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Bob Burns




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PostPosted: Fri 22 Feb, 2008 7:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Peter, I am not specifically speaking of "swords", I speak of all weapons, which includes modified farm tools!

Bob
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Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
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PostPosted: Fri 22 Feb, 2008 8:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bob Burns wrote:
Hi Peter, I am not specifically speaking of "swords", I speak of all weapons, which includes modified farm tools!


Farm tools against arms was called revolution Wink

I thought the topic however was about arms, the things the farmers would NOT have.
We have quite a bit of farm tools, old ones still at use too. The general reaction to the 'dangerous' sword and a workmanlike sickle is markedly different whereas to ME the sickle looks every bit as mean as it is. But then I have cut myself with it Laughing Out Loud

The bottom line is that perception is reality and most people perceieve a sword or dagger as lethal and a chisel as an honest tool.

peter
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Fri 22 Feb, 2008 9:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Agreed, Peter. It really saddens me. I, however, am young, and can't really do much to sway opinion, try as I might.

M.

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Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
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PostPosted: Fri 22 Feb, 2008 9:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

M. Eversberg II wrote:
Agreed, Peter. It really saddens me. I, however, am young, and can't really do much to sway opinion, try as I might.


Well, their opinion is their ' problem'. They have the right on an opinion, on ventilating an opinion, even if it lacks any base.
It stops however when that opinion limits the freedom of someone else. This works in all directions.
At least in theory. In the real world democracy is the dictatorship of the mayority meaning mediocracy.

It is a waste of time to change those opinions. Simply take care that it does not include dictating YOUR behaviour or tastes.
Political correctnes however means it is sometimes in your best interest not to express yourself, think the finger and do what you want anyway Laughing Out Loud

peter
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Sat 23 Feb, 2008 2:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

While I'm sure this would be a fascinating discussion on modern society and social ethics, I must point out we are far from the original topic.

To help get us back on track, I think one of the bigger issues in the "lack of compassion" we see is the way we've grown so accustomed to ranged killing whenever killing is to be done. Often, whenever I discuss my I.33 studies, or even my interest in older weapons, the first and immediate response is "I'll just bring a gun and shoot you.", or words to that effect, even when the topic has nothing to do with using the weapons.

M.

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Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
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PostPosted: Sat 23 Feb, 2008 5:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

M. Eversberg II wrote:
While I'm sure this would be a fascinating discussion on modern society and social ethics, I must point out we are far from the original topic.


Are the socalled politically correct social ethics in modern society not the crux of the reactions?!
The way I read the ts that is exactly the point! People react to a prejudiced association and not to fact, thus value on the ground of their subjective unfounded emotions.

peter
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Rex Metcalf




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PostPosted: Sat 23 Feb, 2008 6:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

[quote="Peter Bosman"]
Bob Burns wrote:


I thought the topic however was about arms, the things the farmers would NOT have.


peter


I beg to respectfully differ, sir. At least among prosperous farmers swords were not that uncommon
I would call everyones attention to the Orkneyinga saga, The Earls were often hardworking farmers
....who were not loathe to redden a sword blade between planting and harvest Cool
Icelandic Sagas recount some stout feats of arms in both holmgang and Einvigi....By farmers.

In England bowmen were often armed with sword and buckler. True that swords and other weapons can be tools of oppression.....But they are also tools of liberation. And more than once skill at arms compensated, in a fashion, for not being of noble blood. In the right circumstances the class structure was more fluid than many general histories allow for today.

Rex D. Metcalf
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Rex Metcalf




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PostPosted: Sat 23 Feb, 2008 6:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Back to the original topic. I dont understand why there is a need for compassion WTF?!
Like any martial endeavour there are set backs and like life in general sometimes you
have to go it alone. My evening work out includes alot of sword work among other exercises
that put me in better condition than most...
Being fit, having a rudiment of weapons skill, knowing how to think strategically and tactically, knowing
how to move efficiently.....I really cant see that I need anyones compassion or more to the point *approval*.
I hope my fellow students of this noble science see it the same way. Train hard, forget the B.S.! Cool

Rex D. Metcalf
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Bob Burns




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PostPosted: Sun 24 Feb, 2008 9:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I answered this thread with a post about the "Lack of Understanding and Compassion" of historical weapons.
"Not" about what is and what is not a weapon! <~~This is not what the Thread is about!

Bob
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sun 24 Feb, 2008 10:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The title of the Topic seems a little strange to me at least in the choice of words !? I think everybody understood the meaning of the question and answered it generally " on " topic

Quote:
Lack of understanding and compassion for historical weapons


Maybe it should say " Lack of understanding of the passion and interest in historical weapons and a lack of appreciation for their historical, design and aesthetic value ". But maybe I'm just splitting hairs here? Wink

Anyway, people should respect other people's passions even if they personally don't share them or understand them: As an example, I don't find stamp collecting particularly interesting but I can respect and understand the passion of someone who does find stamps worth studying, owning and collecting.

I don't have a very high opinion of people who mock their friends or family members because they enjoy something.
( Maybe those friends and family think that they are just harmlessly joking and teasing but at some point it gets very old and it's not kind or respectful of the person).

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Thom R.




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PostPosted: Sun 24 Feb, 2008 10:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Lack of understanding and compassion for historical weap         Reply with quote

I think you have more or less answered your own question while asking it........ you see these blades (as I do) as living history, whether antique or repro it doesn't really matter, in the end they are important historical artifacts and still have relevance in terms of what they can teach us as to how people worked and lived in the past. So I think the suggestion of tieing together your collection with books and possibly other artifacts (such as clothing and armour) is a great idea.

for my part when my kids ask "dad what would our ancestors have carried at Culloden?", I can take out the sword and tell them, well they charged the english cannons firing grapeshot with a sword like this in one hand and a muzzle loading pistol like that in the other - wasn't that nuts?. but you know what amazes me is how ignorant many people here in the states of scots and irish descent are with regard to their own cultural history. we play pipes on sundays sometimes at st philips church here in tucson, and we get people coming to listen all the time and they'll have on their pride but when you ask em about where their family is from, or whether they were covenanters or whether their family came here before or after the 45 they just stare at you like "convent what?" 1945? I am sorry to say but it is just amazing to me how ignorant people are on their own history. Its our history, afterall, it belongs to us its who we are and why we are here in the US and in Canada and New Zealand and Australia. We have Saint Pats coming up and the Irish are the same, 95% of folks standing watching the parade with their green paint on their faces haven't a clue as to what the battle of the Boyne was about or who deValera was

But thats where these swords can come in if you follow my drift, as a tool to educate as well as a tool for martial arts training. Good Luck. TR
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Richard Gough Thomas





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PostPosted: Mon 25 Feb, 2008 6:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:

How about a hospital bed ? Most people focus on their own situation when sick and their relatives visiting also focus on the reason the person they love is there: Nobody seems to even think of all the people who used the same bed over the years and how many people DIED in that bed ! Depending on the hospital ward that might be quite a few: So why don't hospital beds " creep people out " but swords creep some people out because they may be associated with death i.e. the sword being permanently tainted by association with death and not the hospital bed ?

But they do. How many people do you know that claim to hate hospitals, or talk about "the hospital smell"?

I think the example you've used supports the case at hand more than you realise.
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Anders Backlund




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PostPosted: Mon 25 Feb, 2008 1:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

M. Eversberg II wrote:
To help get us back on track, I think one of the bigger issues in the "lack of compassion" we see is the way we've grown so accustomed to ranged killing whenever killing is to be done. Often, whenever I discuss my I.33 studies, or even my interest in older weapons, the first and immediate response is "I'll just bring a gun and shoot you.", or words to that effect, even when the topic has nothing to do with using the weapons.


Heck, just make a thread anywhere asking which sword the reader would prefer to bring into battle and you can bet good money that someone will want to be all smart and reply: "I'd bring a gun!" Razz

The sword is an ode to the strife of mankind.

"This doesn't look easy... but I bet it is!"
-Homer Simpson.
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Dan P




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PostPosted: Mon 25 Feb, 2008 2:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anders Backlund wrote:
Heck, just make a thread anywhere asking which sword the reader would prefer to bring into battle and you can bet good money that someone will want to be all smart and reply: "I'd bring a gun!" Razz

In self-defense class... we could be practicing empty-handed techniques and some guy will invariably say "yeah I'd just use a gun". To which the counterargument is to pin him to the ground and then politely ask him if he can draw his weapon. Now I don't have anything against guns. But plenty of people with guns have lost fights because the other guy was too close and got the drop on him with a short-ranged weapon.
Anyway, swords and other things. I'm fine with my weapons because I've committed time and energy toward at least basically knowing how they work and what they do. Its not surprising that people who don't do this are less comfortable, and that's just fine with me as long as they don't, like, freak out and panic or something.
The irony is that there are were people who, even though they think I'm a competent martial artist, instructor for their kids, whatever, found it odd that I actually carried a knife all the time. I guess there's just a little disconnect going on there.
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Ed Toton




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PostPosted: Tue 26 Feb, 2008 6:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan P wrote:

In self-defense class... we could be practicing empty-handed techniques and some guy will invariably say "yeah I'd just use a gun". To which the counterargument is to pin him to the ground and then politely ask him if he can draw his weapon. Now I don't have anything against guns. But plenty of people with guns have lost fights because the other guy was too close and got the drop on him with a short-ranged weapon.


When making those comments, they're also neglecting the fact that they're unlikely to have a gun with them if someone gets the drop on them, speaking in a real-world self-defense context. What do you do then? Shoot them with your finger? Happy

(this is of course ignoring those who legally carry for self defense, but in my experience they aren't immature about it)

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Hugo Voisine





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PostPosted: Tue 26 Feb, 2008 8:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
(this is of course ignoring those who legally carry for self defense, but in my experience they aren't immature about it)


And those would of course know better than saying "I would just use my gun".

There is also the fact that people in modern armies are still trained for hand-to-hand combat, and most of them carry some kind of knife (or a Gus Trim tak falchion for the luckiest Happy) as a backup weapon / tool.

« Que dites-vous ?... C'est inutile ?... Je le sais !
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Bob Burns




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PostPosted: Wed 27 Feb, 2008 7:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I definitely have a compassion and understanding for weapons, in fact rather than a compassion it's a passion and I am sure it comes from my years in Kung Fu as a mid to late teen, then later at the ages of 44 to 47 in karate and "Reality Combat" for which I earned a black belt, along with making my chiropractor a very happy man with my medical insurance and some 200 plus chiropractic sessions during those three years, only to learn that my problems were caused by arthritis of the spinal column and 5 minor herniated discs, 3 in the lumbar and 2 in the cervical and thus my days in martial arts came to an abrupt end, when both my regular physician and orthopedic surgeon both told me practically the same words. "As far as contact martial arts go, You Are Finished" Exclamation Sad
In short because this is not the topic, as far as effective fighting arts go, whether unarmed or with a sword, it comes down to "practice, repetition, practice, repetition to instill Muscle Memory and to learn to Command the Distance and Timing the opponent.
I am sure it's because of all of this that I have such a love for swords, polearms, daggers, because those were the days when you got up close and personal with your adversary in most instances unless you were an archer and even then you might wind up with the enemy in your face. Once accurate firearms came into play, the up close and personal days were soon to come to an end as the primary means of warfare outside of archers and crossbowmen.
Seeing and occasionally having the opportunity to handle an actual antique sword, polearm, etc., is for me something very spiritual, when I let my imagination envision that perhaps this very weapon was involved in the melee of warfare!

Sincerely,

Bob
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Douglas G.





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PostPosted: Wed 27 Feb, 2008 9:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's a twist on the topic, where the problem is completely the opposite, people who appreciate
your swords so much they have to touch every square inch of the blade (no double entendres, please)
including thumbing the edge to test sharpness. It's cool that they show an interest, so maybe furthering
the lesson by having them clean and oli the blade is in order. A firm rule in my house, Cheetohs and
swords don't mix !!!

Doug
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Ed Toton




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PostPosted: Thu 28 Feb, 2008 8:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I usually have an oily cloth somewhere near my collection to deal with fingerprints, but it's not often that people handle my weapons. Most of the people who come to visit have seen them many times before, so unless it's a new addition, it's generally safe from fingerprints and skin oils.

"compassion" isn't really the word I'd use to discuss people's lack of understanding, but rather "respect". There's a certain amount of respect that weapons require, I think, in terms of their danger and lethality, so that one can handle them (or be in their presence) safely and without fear, but also without flagrant disregard for their capabilities. It's a balance that only comes with exposure. Does that make sense?

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